Pinned VS LAB feedback from OK players

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  • VS LAB feedback from OK players

    Calling all Khans, Shamans and Hunters,

    The Vermins Swarm LAB alpha has been released !

    We would like to gather constructive feedback on the book in this post. Feel free to give us your feelings, impressions, pros and cons.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Swelt ().

  • Nothing to talk about really. Book is OP AF. life is cheap is a broken rule that makes units unbreakable, shooting can annihilate whole units in one turn (weapon teams with 6 catapults 2x2 for example or deepfire thowers, that works pretty much like spell 6 from pyro, but in shooting, so impossible to stop it), magic is broken, you can have 2 casters with +2 to cast, and they can land comet turn 1 with 5 dices, cause if the caster dies in the process is only 200 point lost, cc units besides being unbreakable in CC have quite a good punch. I think we all are waiting for patch 1.1 and see what direction the nerf hammer is coming, and then there will be something more to talk about. Now half of the book needs to be beaten to "balance" level, next we can focus on things that are still a bit too high/too low but not in such an obvious way (dreadmill chariots that can wipe units out for 335 pts or an unkillable chaff that comes from underground and has 1+ save xD or 300 points model that has 3d3+3 attacks s7 ap3 [so 9 attacks, off 3 so 4,5 hits s7 ap3, nice] )
  • and does all those things fit into one army? Or are just listing stuff that is never gonna be in one list anyway?

    Just asking as i have not been spending that much time with the LAB or playing against them.

    Looking forward for wounding everything on 2s with stomps, impact and tribes. Pyro will be fun and even a swarm of insects can hurt. Double FIER will be tough, but we habe ways to deal with low S attack
  • ukrocky wrote:

    People bemoning everything in the book, I'm sure if I wrote a 15,000pt ogre list and compared it to a 4500 list from any book it would look brutal...
    ???
    You mean that the whole VS book is undercosted, so 4500 in points that we see now, is more likely a couple thousands more in "balanced" version? Well, then why would you even publish a book like this, if it is so obvious? xD

    if so, i'll quote myself:

    Jarek wrote:

    I think we all are waiting for patch 1.1 and see what direction the nerf hammer is coming [...]
  • @Jarek you totally missed my point. You just listed everything in the book that is good. That is not a 4500 list. I can say for example in the ogre book:

    - omg 2 5x5 catapult chariots
    - wtf 2 cannon chariots
    - 18D6 S4 shots?!

    but I can’t fit all those things in.

    Same in your example and what a lot of people are saying. You can’t fit all the toys in.
  • 1 House Prefect - Scorchit Alchemist @ 165 PtsGeneral; Hand Weapon; Pistol (3+); Callous; Scorchit Alchemist; Valorous
    Discretion
    Orator’s Toga [40]

    1 Swarm Priest Adept @ 275 Pts
    Caelysian Pantheon; Wizard Adept; The Witchcraft; Hand Weapon; Callous;
    Holy Triumvirate; Valorous Discretion
    Crown of Hubris [65]

    1 Swarm Priest Adept @ 285 Pts
    Caelysian Pantheon; Wizard Adept; The Thaumaturgy; Hand Weapon; Callous;
    Holy Triumvirate; Valorous Discretion
    Book of Arcane Mastery [75]

    1 Swarm Priest Adept @ 615 Pts
    Cult of Errahman; Wizard Adept; The Thaumaturgy; Hand Weapon; Callous;
    Holy Triumvirate; Valorous Discretion
    1 Sacred Platform - Pestilent Pulpit @ [0] Pts

    49 Blackfur Veterans @ 600 Pts
    Halberd Heavy Armour; Shield; Eagle Standard; Musician; Avrasi
    Formations; Callous; Cohort Coordination; Life is Cheap
    Rending Banner [50]
    1 Champion @ [10] Pts

    50 Vermin Legionaries @ 390 Pts
    Shield & Spear; Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Eagle Standard; Musician;
    Callous; Cohort Coordination; Life is Cheap
    Banner of Relentless Company [40]
    1 Champion @ [10] Pts

    15 Vermin Velites @ 135 Pts
    Hand Weapon; Throwing Weapons (4+); Light Armour; Musician; Callous;
    Cohort Coordination; Life is Cheap

    33 Plague Disciples @ 405 Pts
    Bloodpox Blades; Paired Weapons; Standard; Musician; Callous; Cult of
    Errahman; Fear no Evil; Life is Cheap; Poisoned Attacks
    1 Champion @ [10] Pts

    1 Verminous Artillery - Rakachit Mauss Cannon (4+) @ 210 Pts
    Rakachit Mauss Cannon (4+); Trial and Terror; Callous

    1 Verminous Artillery - Rakachit Mauss Cannon (4+) @ 210 Pts
    Rakachit Mauss Cannon (4+); Trial and Terror; Callous

    4 Murmillo Brutes @ 395 Pts
    Deepfire Thrower (4+); Trial and Terror; Heavy Armour; Eagle Standard;
    Musician; Quick to Fire

    6 Experimental Weapon Teams - Canister Launcher @ 365 Pts
    Canister Launcher (4+); Trial and Terror; Heavy Armour; Callous; Life is
    Cheap; Quick to Fire

    2x 10 Giant Rats @ 80 Pts
    Callous; Insignificant; Life is Cheap

    1 Stygian Earthbreaker @ 290 Pts
    Callous; Earthbreaker Drill; Underground Arrival

    Models in Army: 184
    Total Army Cost: 4500

    It took me 10 minutes to come up with this. Its a joke of an army now, you don't even have to put everything that's OP in the roster, to crush everything your opponent has. I have 2 blocks that autowin combats pretty much, 1 that has decent chances, bsb is build in to the army for 10 points on a unit, 3 chaffs and shooting that easy halfs units. My general is pretty much unkillable except very specific spells (maybe mr2-3 would help?), and i start my magic phase by casting wrath of gods on the middle of your army with 5 dices. Next -1 res or random movement on your main unit and shooting begins. How would you even try to play vs that roster? btw @ukrocky, you can come up with any army, not only OK.
  • Jarek wrote:

    1 House Prefect - Scorchit Alchemist @ 165 PtsGeneral; Hand Weapon; Pistol (3+); Callous; Scorchit Alchemist; Valorous
    Discretion
    Orator’s Toga [40]

    1 Swarm Priest Adept @ 275 Pts
    Caelysian Pantheon; Wizard Adept; The Witchcraft; Hand Weapon; Callous;
    Holy Triumvirate; Valorous Discretion
    Crown of Hubris [65]

    1 Swarm Priest Adept @ 285 Pts
    Caelysian Pantheon; Wizard Adept; The Thaumaturgy; Hand Weapon; Callous;
    Holy Triumvirate; Valorous Discretion
    Book of Arcane Mastery [75]

    1 Swarm Priest Adept @ 615 Pts
    Cult of Errahman; Wizard Adept; The Thaumaturgy; Hand Weapon; Callous;
    Holy Triumvirate; Valorous Discretion
    1 Sacred Platform - Pestilent Pulpit @ [0] Pts

    49 Blackfur Veterans @ 600 Pts
    Halberd Heavy Armour; Shield; Eagle Standard; Musician; Avrasi
    Formations; Callous; Cohort Coordination; Life is Cheap
    Rending Banner [50]
    1 Champion @ [10] Pts

    50 Vermin Legionaries @ 390 Pts
    Shield & Spear; Spear; Light Armour; Shield; Eagle Standard; Musician;
    Callous; Cohort Coordination; Life is Cheap
    Banner of Relentless Company [40]
    1 Champion @ [10] Pts

    15 Vermin Velites @ 135 Pts
    Hand Weapon; Throwing Weapons (4+); Light Armour; Musician; Callous;
    Cohort Coordination; Life is Cheap

    33 Plague Disciples @ 405 Pts
    Bloodpox Blades; Paired Weapons; Standard; Musician; Callous; Cult of
    Errahman; Fear no Evil; Life is Cheap; Poisoned Attacks
    1 Champion @ [10] Pts

    1 Verminous Artillery - Rakachit Mauss Cannon (4+) @ 210 Pts
    Rakachit Mauss Cannon (4+); Trial and Terror; Callous

    1 Verminous Artillery - Rakachit Mauss Cannon (4+) @ 210 Pts
    Rakachit Mauss Cannon (4+); Trial and Terror; Callous

    4 Murmillo Brutes @ 395 Pts
    Deepfire Thrower (4+); Trial and Terror; Heavy Armour; Eagle Standard;
    Musician; Quick to Fire

    6 Experimental Weapon Teams - Canister Launcher @ 365 Pts
    Canister Launcher (4+); Trial and Terror; Heavy Armour; Callous; Life is
    Cheap; Quick to Fire

    2x 10 Giant Rats @ 80 Pts
    Callous; Insignificant; Life is Cheap

    1 Stygian Earthbreaker @ 290 Pts
    Callous; Earthbreaker Drill; Underground Arrival

    Models in Army: 184
    Total Army Cost: 4500

    It took me 10 minutes to come up with this. Its a joke of an army now, you don't even have to put everything that's OP in the roster, to crush everything your opponent has. I have 2 blocks that autowin combats pretty much, 1 that has decent chances, bsb is build in to the army for 10 points on a unit, 3 chaffs and shooting that easy halfs units. My general is pretty much unkillable except very specific spells (maybe mr2-3 would help?), and i start my magic phase by casting wrath of gods on the middle of your army with 5 dices. Next -1 res or random movement on your main unit and shooting begins. How would you even try to play vs that roster? btw @ukrocky, you can come up with any army, not only OK.
    Just to point out some things in the list and the thought process you put forward…
    You will not be casting Wrath since you don’t have 3 priests of the same Cult. Unless you have 3 of the same, you are just a normal apprentice or adept. You’ve taken a Skorchit Prefect as your General, which is fine, but you’ve just taken a hit in the total Discipline by keeping it at 5. A couple of Terror/Panic tests and the army is on its way to the edge of the board. An ogre Giant can keep the VS non-blocks from marching and being able to support the main line, which is pretty big. Those huge blocks are definitely tough, from the front. They have huge flanks that if exposed can spell disaster, especially when disrupted. Those Weapon Teams are not going to do much to ogres as they are capped at the total hits they can do to a unit. They will shred Scrapplings, but 6 weapon team models will waste their shots on the smaller units of ogres that are prevalent in the meta. Rotary guns will be a stand off with bombadiers as they are the inspiration for their design. Ogre lists will be ok against VS as they have tools to deal with them. There will be wins and there will be losses.
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - CGL Member

    D.L.- ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Adv. Magic & Giants Design

    PlaytestTeam-Mid Atlantic USA

    Vermin Swarms LAB TT

  • @Jarek
    Canisters are maxed by number of models in unit, so 6of them will deal... 6 hits vs your 6 mercs.
    Deepfire are just flamers, same as in many other armies, vs your 12 model gutstar 6 of them will deal... 12 S3ap0 hits.
    The +2 to cast is ok, but if the spell fail twice it could spell the end for all 3 of your makes.
    Dont cry Wolf pls, play a few games, get a feel of the army.
  • Sons of Avalanche wounding on 2’s….just means that it might be worthwhile to take units with multiple ranks to bypass any Skorchit one use only perks. Helloooo Scratapults….Children of Umi…big protection against VS. A kitty cat in the flank negates the bonus of Spears…LoL for Trappers…that’s a lot of DTTs to take. How about a block of their own? 60 Scraplings that wound on 3’s and negate the VS steadfast all for an absolute bargain of 410 points.
    I was thinking that OK was going to be Okay, but now I’m thinking they will be great. Just might require a little different mindset.

    I don’t want to pick on @Jarek as he is correct that at first glance the army can be intimidating. It’s new and different and the numbers look, well, big. If you go toe to toe with VS with an MSU mindset, then chances are, you’ll lose. Out think them. Set the traps. Let them waste 6 team shots on a unit as that is more chances of rolling a 1. It’s d6 hits to the shooting unit for every 1 rolled for a mishap. More then likely, they will lose the team at the cost of 3 ogres. Effective against Scrapplings, but that’s ok. Looks intimidating on paper, but really isn’t for Ogres.
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - CGL Member

    D.L.- ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Adv. Magic & Giants Design

    PlaytestTeam-Mid Atlantic USA

    Vermin Swarms LAB TT

  • After reading the book over and over again, i think we are probably one of the few books that doesn't got the shortest end of the stick.

    Of course there are things that are really really bad for us (doomblade, 5+ poison pendulum unit, TnT Jeezails, Mauss Cannons) that got even more scary then before (unnecessarily) but the main disaster of the book - the life is cheap rule - doesnt hit us as hard as other armies since we, atleast in theory, have the possibility (impact, stomps) to win against that rule.

    But the real offender in the book are still the blackfur veterans (i will ignore the chars because the one-time rule would not change anything)

    550 - 50 Blackfur Veterans, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard
    vs
    590 - 8 Bruisers, Standard Bearer, Musician, Champion

    They kick our butt. Even if we agree that we get the charge.

    In my highly (un)professional ~ not bulletproof calc (blackfurs in line formation, we 4x2 for max impact hits and stomps and we cant break their steadfast anyways) we lose by 1.

    BF: 40A, 26.68 hits, 13.34w, 6+ armor save = 11.13w

    Bruiser: 8 Impact hits = 6.67w / remaining 5 Bruiser - 15A, 7.5 hits, 6.26w / 4 Stomps = 3.34w .... together 16.63w

    11w vs 9w (17w halved because of life is cheap), lost by 2 (reducing to 1 because of charge). 5 Bruiser and 33 Blackfurs left. Next round we got an autobreak. If we DONT get the charge, we lose by 7 and autobreak instantly.

    Friendly reminder, even 18 chaoswarriors with halberds deal less dmg to us then the blackfurs (11.13w blackfurs vs 9.34w from the warriors [7wide])

    TL:DR

    Its an uphill battle. A real one. Its not impossible to win but depending on the list of the VS player, you can go and search fun anywhere else.
  • skipschnit wrote:

    Sons of Avalanche wounding on 2’s….just means that it might be worthwhile to take units with multiple ranks to bypass any Skorchit one use only perks. Helloooo Scratapults….Children of Umi…big protection against VS. A kitty cat in the flank negates the bonus of Spears…LoL for Trappers…that’s a lot of DTTs to take. How about a block of their own? 60 Scraplings that wound on 3’s and negate the VS steadfast all for an absolute bargain of 410 points.
    I was thinking that OK was going to be Okay, but now I’m thinking they will be great. Just might require a little different mindset.

    I don’t want to pick on @Jarek as he is correct that at first glance the army can be intimidating. It’s new and different and the numbers look, well, big. If you go toe to toe with VS with an MSU mindset, then chances are, you’ll lose. Out think them. Set the traps. Let them waste 6 team shots on a unit as that is more chances of rolling a 1. It’s d6 hits to the shooting unit for every 1 rolled for a mishap. More then likely, they will lose the team at the cost of 3 ogres. Effective against Scrapplings, but that’s ok. Looks intimidating on paper, but really isn’t for Ogres.
    That doesnt work that way. The only reason a probably standard VS list (catapults, flamethrowers) doesnt work well against us is that we dont have good targets for it. If we include a perfect target that we have to babysit, we can use the points more wisely.

    And what exactly we can do against multiwound jezzails is beyond my grasp.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Zwei ().

  • Zwei wrote:

    After reading the book over and over again, i think we are probably one of the few books that doesn't got the shortest end of the stick.

    Of course there are things that are really really bad for us (doomblade, 5+ poison pendulum unit, TnT Jeezails, Mauss Cannons) that got even more scary then before (unnecessarily) but the main disaster of the book - the life is cheap rule - doesnt hit us as hard as other armies since we, atleast in theory, have the possibility (impact, stomps) to win against that rule.

    But the real offender in the book are still the blackfur veterans (i will ignore the chars because the one-time rule would not change anything)

    550 - 50 Blackfur Veterans, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard
    vs
    590 - 8 Bruisers, Standard Bearer, Musician, Champion

    They kick our butt. Even if we agree that we get the charge.

    In my highly (un)professional ~ not bulletproof calc (blackfurs in line formation, we 4x2 for max impact hits and stomps and we cant break their steadfast anyways) we lose by 1.

    BF: 40A, 26.68 hits, 13.34w, 6+ armor save = 11.13w

    Bruiser: 8 Impact hits = 6.67w / remaining 5 Bruiser - 15A, 7.5 hits, 6.26w / 4 Stomps = 3.34w .... together 16.63w

    11w vs 9w (17w halved because of life is cheap), lost by 2 (reducing to 1 because of charge). 5 Bruiser and 33 Blackfurs left. Next round we got an autobreak. If we DONT get the charge, we lose by 7 and autobreak instantly.

    Friendly reminder, even 18 chaoswarriors with halberds deal less dmg to us then the blackfurs (11.13w blackfurs vs 9.34w from the warriors [7wide])

    TL:DR

    Its an uphill battle. A real one. Its not impossible to win but depending on the list of the VS player, you can go and search fun anywhere else.
    In my opinion, this combat should never happen one on one and in this manner. If games were resolved with all of the mathhammer and what if’s and the Mano y Mano, then there’s no point of getting models or playing the game. Why would you waste your great weapons on that charge? S6 on R2 is overkill. Did you get caught out of position and had to make that charge out of desperation? The Vets can’t make a T1 charge so were there no opportunities to reduce their number or out maneuver them? You have a great point that toe to toe, Bruisers lose, but that is also against 50 bodies of the best that a race can offer. Thermopylae was lost not by a frontal assault, but by a flanking maneuver.
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - CGL Member

    D.L.- ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Adv. Magic & Giants Design

    PlaytestTeam-Mid Atlantic USA

    Vermin Swarms LAB TT

  • skipschnit wrote:

    Zwei wrote:

    After reading the book over and over again, i think we are probably one of the few books that doesn't got the shortest end of the stick.

    Of course there are things that are really really bad for us (doomblade, 5+ poison pendulum unit, TnT Jeezails, Mauss Cannons) that got even more scary then before (unnecessarily) but the main disaster of the book - the life is cheap rule - doesnt hit us as hard as other armies since we, atleast in theory, have the possibility (impact, stomps) to win against that rule.

    But the real offender in the book are still the blackfur veterans (i will ignore the chars because the one-time rule would not change anything)

    550 - 50 Blackfur Veterans, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard
    vs
    590 - 8 Bruisers, Standard Bearer, Musician, Champion

    They kick our butt. Even if we agree that we get the charge.

    In my highly (un)professional ~ not bulletproof calc (blackfurs in line formation, we 4x2 for max impact hits and stomps and we cant break their steadfast anyways) we lose by 1.

    BF: 40A, 26.68 hits, 13.34w, 6+ armor save = 11.13w

    Bruiser: 8 Impact hits = 6.67w / remaining 5 Bruiser - 15A, 7.5 hits, 6.26w / 4 Stomps = 3.34w .... together 16.63w

    11w vs 9w (17w halved because of life is cheap), lost by 2 (reducing to 1 because of charge). 5 Bruiser and 33 Blackfurs left. Next round we got an autobreak. If we DONT get the charge, we lose by 7 and autobreak instantly.

    Friendly reminder, even 18 chaoswarriors with halberds deal less dmg to us then the blackfurs (11.13w blackfurs vs 9.34w from the warriors [7wide])

    TL:DR

    Its an uphill battle. A real one. Its not impossible to win but depending on the list of the VS player, you can go and search fun anywhere else.
    In my opinion, this combat should never happen one on one and in this manner. If games were resolved with all of the mathhammer and what if’s and the Mano y Mano, then there’s no point of getting models or playing the game. Why would you waste your great weapons on that charge? S6 on R2 is overkill. Did you get caught out of position and had to make that charge out of desperation? The Vets can’t make a T1 charge so were there no opportunities to reduce their number or out maneuver them? You have a great point that toe to toe, Bruisers lose, but that is also against 50 bodies of the best that a race can offer. Thermopylae was lost not by a frontal assault, but by a flanking maneuver.
    But you have to calculate anything. You have to compare something or you wont get anywhere. If we start to ignore hard facts like combat simulations, we can drop ANY kind of calculations and go with our gutfeeling for power and pricing.
    We could spend hours and hours discussing, how possible it is, that what of our remaining army shoots/kills what of the opponent before what happens if something else happens.

    Example what i mean:

    Your jezzails kill me! Never, your bombardiers kill them before they can do any dmg! But not before your Murmillo Brutes shoot down my bombardiers ........ neverending story.

    Sorry but thats a deathweight that the elves also used before. Mimimi my swordmasters need to have 5A S7 because they die like flies before reaching a combat (hyperbole - dont take it too serious).
  • skipschnit wrote:

    Why would you waste your great weapons on that charge? S6 on R2 is overkill. Did you get caught out of position and had to make that charge out of desperation? The Vets can’t make a T1 charge so were there no opportunities to reduce their number or out maneuver them? You have a great point that toe to toe, Bruisers lose, but that is also against 50 bodies of the best that a race can offer. Thermopylae was lost not by a frontal assault, but by a flanking maneuver.
    Big Bruiser unit is typical for OK core. It hits hard and has a lot of hp.
    For close combat oriented OK lists there are no opportunities to reduce number significantly of bloodfur rats before combat.
    It's okay if Bruisers lose when they were charged by 50 bloodfur rats, but if they have charged rats Bruisers should at least win combat a bit (rats remain steadfast anyway).