Hereditary Spell

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  • "*Rules team have some concerns on the chaffing potential of this spell (place swarm in front of enemy and >12" from your unit, so that it will still be in the way after the flee move). If/when you do test the spell, please test this and let us know if it's actually useful or not."

    So you damage your own unit? Appart from force march and Kill wracking teams/block random movement units/ do a bit of damage those are all suboptimal usage with big risks for your own units. Its imo just not worth to use our quite expensive spell slots on. the former hereditary already whas not super, but imo this is worse.
  • The uses of the spell are very limited. the chaff potential is ridicolous, the amount of damage provided as well. And moreover the casting value is very high. Its kind of impossible to find a good reason to choose the H over other spells.

    I think the team should really look in to it and leave a bit the "better be safe than sorry" approach. That is actually a thing over the whole book imho.

    In our club we already had 2 test matches with the last version, we all agreed that most of the changes were unnecessary. For example:
    - doomblade: the mechanic became again too punishing. It's ok to have some drawback, but this is too much especially for an on foot character that can't be in combat t2/3 most of the times.

    - overall increase in point (not needed at all on most units) and just a small decrease on some entries that clearly have design and not pricing problems. Failed approach imho

    It seems your not considering the big weakness the army has (for example t2 bodies, very low D, very susceptible to snipes/spells that hits every model in the unit due to the reliance on 2wound characters, high risk of mishap etc etc).

    Just my 2 cent
    Team Italy
  • Kunta wrote:

    the chaff potential is ridicolous,
    Considering it is worth 0VP, and you can double up on the spell, anything else (i.e. normal chaffing potential of light troop unit with 12" move) would be incredibly frustrating for opponents to play against.

    I don't think that would be good for the game overall. :)

    Head of Rules Team

    Advisory Board

    Assistant Head of Rules Clarity Team

    VS_LAB team

  • fjugin wrote:

    Bulls Eye wrote:

    So you damage your own unit?
    No, more than 12" from your own unit. So that the flee move can not reach your own unit.
    as @Casp says above with Dis4 and not being able to use commanding presence the swarm will then go through the unit the next turn.

    And even if it passes it'll likely be in the way of your other units moving.

    I'd like the manoeuvrability increased by reducing the number of swarm bases to 2 but increasing wounds to 5 each.

    Also the casting cost is too high and range is too low.

    5/8 casting values, range 12"/24"
  • Most likely swarms will be caught and cause damage to the enemy, and leave enemy right in front of your units, ready for your counter charges or more shooting.

    It's not perfect, but for a free unit, potentially quite useful. Not something super easy to use, requires a bit o thought and precise movement.

    Give it a try guys. Maybe rules team (which consist of top players) knows something about how to abuse the movement and charge rules. ;)

    Head of Rules Team

    Advisory Board

    Assistant Head of Rules Clarity Team

    VS_LAB team

  • My proposed changes in bold.

    Endless Tide: Universal Rule.
    Rat Swarms cannot declare any Charges and always count as Fleeing when Charged (i.e. they must Flee as a Charge Reaction if able to, are destroyed if Pursued into, etc.). In the owning Player's Charge Phase, they can declare charges against friendly Rat Swarms as if they were an enemy unit. Rat Swarms cannot benefit from Commanding Presence. A Rat Swarms unit can make a Sweeping Attack against a single unengaged enemy unit when passing within 1″ (it does not need to and cannot move through or over that unit). The enemy unit suffers 1 hit for each Health Point in the Rat Swarms unit with Strength 2 and Armour Penetration 1. If the enemy unit is Engaged in Combat, then randomise the hits as per the Callous rules. If another unit (friend or foe) comes into base contact with a Rat Swarms unit, then that unit suffers hits as if the Rat Swarms had performed a Sweeping Attack against it. The Rat Swarms unit is then removed as a casualty. At the end of each friendly Magic Phase, the bearer may discard up to 3 Veil Tokens. For each discarded Veil Token, Raise 3
    Health Points in a friendly Rat Swarms unit. This can Raise Health Points above the unit’s starting size, up to a maximum of 27 Health Points.

    Rationale: If Rat Swarms can damaged our own troops, wouldn't they be seen as a societal nuisance that could and would be chased away at times by more civilized rats? This lowers the skill barrier a little (helpful for casuals like me) and let's us not chaff our own units.

    Also, other armies have Veil Token affects baked into their H spells (HbE for example). Why do we have to spend 65 extra points to make our already expensive spell better? It makes us pay 3 (Edit: 4) times to make 1 effect better.
    1. Spell Casting Cost
    2. 65 point Artefact
    3. Additional Veil Tokens
    4. Buying additional Tunnel Markers
    Compare this to HbE who have the Veil Token mechanic build into their spell and VC who have Channel (1) on their Necromantic Staff and I think we come out behind.

    Thank you for your consideration.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by The Unmarked ().

  • fjugin wrote:

    Most likely swarms will be caught and cause damage to the enemy, and leave enemy right in front of your units, ready for your counter charges or more shooting.

    It's not perfect, but for a free unit, potentially quite useful. Not something super easy to use, requires a bit o thought and precise movement.

    Give it a try guys. Maybe rules team (which consist of top players) knows something about how to abuse the movement and charge rules.
    Seems like a really difficult spell, that require lot of anticipation.
    I feel that i will be able as opponent to play with the swarm against the VS player.
    Using charge with redirection, or far away charge.
    VS player will need to be a good player to not make any mistake with his swarm move, otherwise, the spell will be turned against him.
    Seems quite unique into T9A magic. I dont see any other spell that could be turned against the caster by the opponent.

    Now its just a first sensation i need to try, maybe i miss something.

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  • How about

    Endless Tide: Universal Rule.
    Rat Swarms cannot declare any Charges and cannot be charged. Rat Swarms can move through all other units and all other units (friend or foe) can move through Rat Swarms space but these moves must end without overlapping the unit boundaries.
    When any unit does this the Rat Swarms makea Dangerous Terrain (2) check for every health point, any fails cause a str3 AP1 wound on the unit in addition to the Rat Swarm losing a health point.
    Rat Swarms cannot benefit from Commanding Presence
    At the end of each friendly Magic Phase, the bearer may discard up to 3 Veil Tokens. For each discarded Veil Token, Raise 3
    Health Points in a friendly Rat Swarms unit. This can Raise Health Points above the unit’s starting size, up to a maximum of 27 Health Points.

    This kind of hints to the original use of the spell that the rules team had devised, it means they can make a play to control certain enemy movement by denying space but not preventing a charge through them or preventing us from charging through them either.

    It gives them reusability, we can move them around the back field, continually trying to eek away wounds. It fits thematically as lots of little rats scurry around the battlefield nipping at the heals of the enemy with sharp and vicious teeth.
  • Or could we just define the swarm as a piece of terrain? That would make it easier, and we could spare all those sentences that try to avoid them being abused as chaff.

    Rat swarm is considered as open terrain. It can move like light troops up to 10" in the VS player movement phase. When touching or being touched by a unit, it is removed from table and causes D3 S3 AP1 hits per base.
  • Casp wrote:

    fjugin wrote:

    Most likely swarms will be caught and cause damage to the enemy, and leave enemy right in front of your units, ready for your counter charges or more shooting.

    It's not perfect, but for a free unit, potentially quite useful. Not something super easy to use, requires a bit o thought and precise movement.

    Give it a try guys. Maybe rules team (which consist of top players) knows something about how to abuse the movement and charge rules.
    Seems like a really difficult spell, that require lot of anticipation.I feel that i will be able as opponent to play with the swarm against the VS player.
    Using charge with redirection, or far away charge.
    VS player will need to be a good player to not make any mistake with his swarm move, otherwise, the spell will be turned against him.
    Seems quite unique into T9A magic. I dont see any other spell that could be turned against the caster by the opponent.

    Now its just a first sensation i need to try, maybe i miss something.
    You can literally just deploy it behind an enemy unit and they have to turn something around or get constantly hit. Using it that way requires very little thought. 18" from a tunnel means in your opponents deployment zone, if your tunnels are on the centre line. Should be very easy to find a spot on his flank or rear where he can't see it.

    I'd basically use it identically to shadowfurs, but instead of popping up on a flank and fishing for 6s against vulnerable units with pistols, I'm fishing for 6s with sweeping attacks.
  • The Unmarked wrote:

    When a unit charges my Rat Swarms and destroys them after suffering their attacks, the charging unit gets to overrun or perform a post-combat reform per "No More Foes" correct?
    There’s a slight to good difference between No More Foes and Charging Fleeing Units. No More Foes is after Melee phase, where as the Swarms should never enter into the Melee Phase. Once contacted, they inflict damage and are immediately removed. The Chargers then continue with the Charging Fleeing Units rules which state that it can make a Discipline Test and if passed may perform a post combat pivot maneuver. Reforms and overruns are only done after the combat phase.
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - CGL Member

    D.L.- ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Adv. Magic & Giants Design

    PlaytestTeam-Mid Atlantic USA

    Vermin Swarms LAB TT

  • fadenye wrote:

    Would be really cool if the Hereditary spell summons a unit that enters the board directly through a Tunnel Marker.
    That would make Tunnel Markers much more prominent instead of being something you ignore if you don't have any tunneling units.
    It would also make the Stygian Overseer, Map of the Deeps(Moving Tunnel Markers) and Slaves adding Tunnel Markers a lot more interesting.
    Check

    Twisted Magpie wrote:

    You could use the spell to add an additional tunnel marker that only lasts till the next magic phase, however it can be placed in the enemy half (only boosted version can be in their deployment zone though).

    It would be great control because the enemy would have to react and cover the marker if they didn't want it to be used.

    I'm fact I like this idea better than my last one.
    Check…Boosted spell now has possibilities to get into enemy’s flanks and be a nuisance that will eventually need to be addressed.

    Fleshbeast wrote:

    I wonder if after the rats hit max health they start incrementing strength but only in our magic phase? That way there is incentive for the opponent to step on it or shoot it earlier and for us to cast earlier.
    Check…the continuous ability to causes Sweeping Attacks while never getting into contact voluntarily, plus a couple of items that allow you to double down, generate VT, which can then be used to “grow” the threat of the swarms.

    fadenye wrote:

    I had the spell when playing but with its low damage I always casted something else.
    Even if the damage is fixed there is a big problem with the spell, barely anyone has the models for this spell.
    I don't want to buy and paint models just for a spell doing damage when the only thing it uses is the boundary to trigger the damage and then you remove the models.
    At least the spell could have just had counters on a single Rat Swarm model.
    Will now just use unit trays for the spell but it feels awkward.
    I only have 3 models and would much rather have a normal unit with Rat Swarms and make the Hereditary something else.
    Check…now the entry barrier for this spell to be useful is much lower and its effects are tied more to choice.

    mr-modmoto wrote:

    Rixitotal wrote:

    We already have a spell that "grows" in Wrath of God, and that is very high impact and less complex.
    Jeah, but the cool difference is, that you can choose when to stop the growing. And also what to hit. I absolutely like those two elements. But in the end, it is just damage and not that much of it, not really exciting.
    What I also thought is, that you can make it more of a zoning out/chaff spell by removing the part with "can not be charged" and "gets destroyed when touched". Just make it a normal unit. To not be a too easy chaff, you could state, that after a round of combat, all remaining swarms die and generate the s2 ap1 hits. And maybe also make a rule that you can cast this spell only once per turn to not generate endless chaffing. Because right now the element of multiple units is very useless, as the whole unit is nothing more than an extremely large marker. You can charge and see through them like a marker. It looks like "big masses" but essentially does not have any impact that would convey big masses. It is just thin air that does damage. The only thing that I can see it do is, that you can not let it grow in tight situations between two regiments, because they would blow up when they get too big. But this is really not the focus, so i dont see why a normal 1 base marker with tokens is not fine enough.

    It would still be sad, as the original rat swarms where a very cool chaff unit that I am also missing in the new book.
    Ok, zoning and/or blocking can be done since it is a unit. It will take some careful positioning, but the advantages are there. There is also a fluff connection as to their rules and interaction with army leadership figures which is really cool. You can get into positions to block (but why the hell would anyone place this unit (or ANY redirector) directly in line with your charger and your own unit that you don’t want charged?) that are easy to pull an opponent away from your own units that you don’t want charged. Force the enemy to redirect, force the enemy to pass another test after catching in order to pivot…there are other synergies in the book that also make this even better. Causing damage when contacted is also a nod to another commenter on the other thread for “Fight like cornered rats”.

    heliconid wrote:

    The new changes to the HS are pretty big. Interested to see how they play out.

    One knee jerk response is that I really don't like that the hits are randomised for callous. This spell is already at a questionably low power level and adding in downsides like this will discourage people from taking it further. By all means if it's too good add in callous randomising, but it shouldn't have it out the gate.

    The doomspark doesn't randomise for callous, neither should rat swarms.
    Randomize like callous….This is totally on me as a clerical error. I didn’t delete that part and totally missed it during proofread when we sent it to be put into the release Layout format. Seems silly to have a unit that can’t be engaged and has to pick an unengaged target, so suddenly need to randomize hits. :girlbag: The swarms don’t have Callous either because of this. So, as @ValourUnbound said, we will have a Hot Fix or address it on the next Alpha Update.
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - CGL Member

    D.L.- ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Adv. Magic & Giants Design

    PlaytestTeam-Mid Atlantic USA

    Vermin Swarms LAB TT

  • fjugin wrote:

    It's quite flawed to view this as a pure damage spell imo. It can do so much more.
    • Continuous damage over many turns
    • Provide soft cover
    • Force march tests
    • Block movement
    • Limited chaffing*
    • Kill gnasher wrecking teams
    • And do on


    *Rules team have some concerns on the chaffing potential of this spell (place swarm in front of enemy and >12" from your unit, so that it will still be in the way after the flee move). If/when you do test the spell, please test this and let us know if it's actually useful or not.
    I’m going to add the “and so on” here so that players testing can take full advantage of what we currently know, and also could tell us some things that we don’t.

    • The swarms don’t march, thus aren’t susceptible to March Blocking themselves or Dangerous Terrain (unless fleeing)
    • Can pull enemy out of position with fleeing from charges and forcing several discipline checks for the enemy to declare on a more desirable target. Angle your swarm unit so that it blocks them, but center to center is away from your vulnerable units. Discipline test to redirect…discipline test to post combat pivot…I wonder if they (VS) also cast a spell that prevented either no use of Commanding Presence or Rally Around the Flag for these tests? You never know when its really advantageous to get someone stuck out of position for a counter charge.
    • Use the bound spell item to double up and to increase the potential of the unit. Whether this is damage potential or blocking potential is more up to the player’s choice
    • Lower entry as not as many models are needed and any increases are purely by choice. You also have the choice in how much each unit is increased by, rather than an exponential increase that was automatic. Therefore, more tailored to personal choices and situations.
    • Laugh at S2, however in tournaments you will inevitably face a mirror match and S2 AP1 Sweeps will feel like death from a 1000 paper cuts
    • The sweeping attacks are just like Skinning Lash, so you do not have to bounce over and back on a unit in order to do damage and to stay out of line of sight of the enemy. You have a 12” move so you can move as little or as much as needed to get to that 1” from the target, deal damage, and get into safety with a properly placed line of sight tool
    • Use of Tunnels to get into the rear guard of the enemy. Do damage and then proceed to threaten vulnerable targets like war machines or solo characters.
    • Sweeping Attacks ignores to hit modifiers
    • Use the casting range of the spell (from caster or tunnel marker) to block off enemy ambushers that pop up behind your units or scouts that got too close.
    Wiser people than me, :girldiplom: have told me that this is not a 6+ CV type of spell. (Stronger spell/stronger casting)

    Now, can others find anything else? What issues were encountered, both positive and negative? Any more wording in the description counter itself?

    Thanks guys!
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - CGL Member

    D.L.- ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Adv. Magic & Giants Design

    PlaytestTeam-Mid Atlantic USA

    Vermin Swarms LAB TT