Are you motivated to play with the new VS book?

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  • @WhammeWhamme, cheers for your response in post 230 of this thread. I’ll not quote it here as I’m on mobile.

    I’ve given the type of feedback you referred to in the naming thread. You and I have spoken via PM also. I appreciate the time it took you to write the post and hope it helps others clarify their positions should they wish to push for change. :)
    "It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion."
  • JeroBeam wrote:

    skipschnit wrote:

    The names are not likely to change. Some of us tried to nudge things in a different direction, offered up puns, and/or presented many WIP names as suggestions. These did not fit the vision of the BGT and/or writers for VS. Whether it’s right or wrong, weird or familiar…time will tell. However, if they fit the BGT and they are comfortable with the naming, then the Task Team accepts it. We’ve had our internal discussions and said our piece. We move on and develop the mechanics. The community will eventually need to follow suit by accepting it and playing games. The background team is building a world and that is much bigger and more involved than just one book. So things have to fit better for them to cover the past, present, and future of the creation. So, whether I like a name or not, I have to respect it and assume that it fits into the grand scheme.
    In my opinion it is still the biggest problem of this project, that this super big, well discussed and extremly detailed background with which we all will be overwhelmed with, is still not publicly published! Background driven design is fine, if the background is published. If not, it is a kind of super ivory tower. Over 90 % of suggestions (obviously estimated) of the community are shut down with this argument, it is just super silly, not to release it, because you then will get for sure better suggestions
    I am, and I'm sure I'm not alone, now waiting for years for a published background compedium, that is always coming soo. (For years now...) If I think about the possibility, that I could have been waiting many years for this document and I consider it possbile it could be just another collection of letters et al, it is sooo discouraging, I can't describe it in english.

    The background compendium is genuinely close to finished, and in literally just the time since ID was begun, we've updated the policy to try and get more material out on the background sooner in the design cycle.

    Change, however, takes time. Stories need writing, and editing, and layout. The VS supplement still needs things done, but it'll be out when it's ready. Work's been done on SA too. We've laid a lot of foundations and can now actually build houses.

    Necrosa wrote:

    I completely agree with this and I'm quite surprised of the difference of project's organisation between the rule conception part and the background part.

    Furthermore I'm really worried about something that I've read sometimes in this forum : The idea that background is almost finished.

    What I'll say may be chocking but : it can't be done. Has for the rule conception, this will never be finished. Background has to evolve all the time. Trying to "finish" the background sounds terrible to me.

    The background isn't "finished". Individual releases get finished, not the background as a whole.

    Tyranno wrote:

    skipschnit wrote:

    I would love to see that “disclaimer” removed from Supplement Books. It forces a Catch 22, where you can’t get data because nobody plays them…and when nobody plays them, you can’t get any data for improvement.
    The only Supplement that has seen regular “allowance” here has been the Giants Supplement. That’s sad, because the other Supplement Books have a lot to offer.
    How odd. It's the exact other way round here. Makhar, Asklanders and co are happily allowed, but the giant book is heavily looked down upon.

    Whereas in the tiny micro-environment here, it's core rules only because we can't really risk losing a chunk of uninterested players.

    So y'know. "Lack of TO imagination"? Very European perspective.

    Background Team

  • arwaker wrote:

    Well, if you want to improve the situation, apply for BGT and write some texts. We all are aware that there is a big discrepancy between Background / Art teams capacity (number of people willing to contribute) and rules teams.
    I'm sorry, I think I wasn't clear.

    I don't criticise any slowness or any content or whatever. I just wanted to emphasize the difference - like the person in the post just before mine - in the choice of organisational process between background and rules. It's not a question of number of people involved in, it's a processing choice.

    I've seen a post above about people and change resistance. It's not fate. Most of time change resistance can be unlocked by participative process and other different methods.

    Meh, if you're only 5 person to write, why do you impose you such a high level of requirement?

    The more background team produce, the more all these person involve themselves in the background conception process, without asking for the community opinion, the more it will be rude if the community disagree.

    That's why, in my opinion, but I don't ask anyone to agree, it's not a problem of job's quality or anything, it's a problem of organizational process.

    That was exactly the same with the WDG.

    I'm sorry if I'm not clear, but I'm really open to discuss this point.
  • arwaker wrote:

    I think we need to understand, that the slim books were also there to cover quite a lot of different themes and play styles. They are like the path of least resistance, trying to make as few people unhappy as possible, by not making anyone particularly glad.
    The LAB designs so far all limited the number of playstyles and themes a bit down to make the army more according to the background of the regular, most common type of army of a faction. But the lost styles and themes are then offered back in form of supplementary books.
    In more particular sense this affects the clan themes of the old Skaven and early vermin. I like the decision to give less room for plague theme in the book representing the regular vermin army. But I really see no obstacle to a plague themed supplementary book.

    Regarding the concern with the model count. Not sure how you can reach twice the number of models. My lists are far from being twice as big as before. There are some price drops on characters and tools, but the majority of units is not even significantly cheaper than before. Mind sharing two example lists from before and now to get a better feeling about what we are talking? I think of you WANT to play a small army, you still can. Probably it is more a question of internal balance, and you think that you MUST play a large army to be competitive. If that is the case, it is less a conceptual issue but rather a question of internal balance.

    The RPS concern is also one that I share. But in order not to feed expectations, could you describe your particular RPS examples? That might help to identify whether it is more a personal or meta related thing or rather a general situation.

    I'll post on the RPS nature later as that requires more thought, but as far as model count goes, here are some lists:

    Slim VS lists I used in fading flames:
    Vermin Swarm
    870 - Vermin Daemon, General
    740 - Plague Patriarch, Wizard Adept, Occultism, Light Armour (Basalt Infusion), Plague Flail, Plague Pendulum
    185 - Chief, Battle Standard Bearer, Light Armour, Sceptre of Vermin Valour
    380 - 47 Rats-at-Arms, Standard Bearer (Aquila of Ruin), Musician, Champion
    270 - 25 Rats-at-Arms, Standard Bearer (Banner of the Relentless Company), Musician, Champion
    325 - 25 Plague Brotherhood, Standard Bearer (Stalker's Standard), Musician, Champion
    150 - 20 Giant Rats
    302 - 14 Plague Disciples
    302 - 14 Plague Disciples
    145 - 5 Gutter Blades, Throwing Weapons, Ambush and Scout
    145 - 5 Gutter Blades, Throwing Weapons, Ambush and Scout
    135 - Meat Grinder
    90 - 2 Rat Swarms
    230 - Lightning Cannon
    230 - Lightning Cannon
    4499
    Model count: 163

    Another slim list from fading flame:
    870 - Vermin Daemon, General
    665 - Plague Patriarch, Wizard Apprentice, Occultism, Light Armour (Basalt Infusion), Plague Flail, Plague Pendulum
    240 - Chief, Battle Standard Bearer, Light Armour, Binding Scroll, Sceptre of Vermin Valour
    380 - 47 Rats-at-Arms, Standard Bearer (Aquila of Ruin), Musician, Champion
    325 - 25 Plague Brotherhood, Standard Bearer (Stalker's Standard), Musician, Champion
    150 - 20 Giant Rats
    135 - 10 Footpads, Musician
    135 - 10 Footpads, Musician
    715 - 11 Vermin Hulks, Champion
    145 - 5 Gutter Blades, Throwing Weapons, Ambush and Scout
    145 - 5 Gutter Blades, Throwing Weapons, Ambush and Scout
    135 - Meat Grinder
    230 - Lightning Cannon
    230 - Lightning Cannon
    4500
    Model count: 139



    New VS:
    Vermin Swarm
    505 - Swarm Priest, Sacred Platform (Whispering Bell), Wizard Adept, Thaumaturgy, Hand Weapon (Swarm Master), Holy Triumvirate, Caelysian Pantheon
    300 - Swarm Priest, Wizard Adept, Thaumaturgy, Crown of Hubris, Obsidian Rock, Holy Triumvirate, Caelysian Pantheon
    215 - Swarm Priest, Wizard Adept, Witchcraft, Holy Triumvirate, Caelysian Pantheon
    325 - Bloodfur Legate, Shield, Hand Weapon (Secrets of the Doom Blade), Potion of Swiftness
    220 - Vermin Senator, General, Crown of Autocracy, Binding Scroll
    400 - 50 Vermin Legionaries, Shield and Spear, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard (Rending Banner)
    390 - 50 Vermin Legionaries, Shield and Spear, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard (Stalker's Standard)
    235 - 25 Vermin Legionaries, Shield and Spear, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard (Aether Icon)
    235 - 25 Vermin Legionaries, Shield and Spear, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard (Legion Standard)
    445 - 4 Murmillo Brutes, Rotary Gun, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard
    445 - 4 Murmillo Brutes, Rotary Gun, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard
    425 - 40 Plague Disciples, Great Weapon, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer
    90 - 10 Giant Rats
    90 - 10 Giant Rats
    180 - Vermin Artillery, Skorchit Ordnance
    4500
    Model count: 224

    Vermin Swarm
    290 - Swarm Priest, Wizard Adept, Thaumaturgy, Book of Arcane Mastery, Holy Triumvirate, Caelysian Pantheon
    240 - Swarm Priest, Wizard Adept, Witchcraft, Obsidian Rock, Holy Triumvirate, Caelysian Pantheon
    215 - Swarm Priest, Wizard Adept, Thaumaturgy, Holy Triumvirate, Caelysian Pantheon
    215 - Vermin Senator, General, Senatorial Litter, Crown of Autocracy
    385 - 55 Vermin Legionaries, Shield and Spear, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard (Legion Standard)
    360 - 50 Vermin Legionaries, Shield and Spear, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard (Legion Standard)
    235 - 25 Vermin Legionaries, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard (Aether Icon)
    147 - 18 Vermin Velites, Throwing Weapons, Musician
    615 - 6 Murmillo Brutes, Rotary Gun, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard
    250 - 6 Fetthis Brutes
    90 - 10 Giant Rats
    90 - 10 Giant Rats
    225 - Vermin Artillery, Rakachit Mauss Cannon
    225 - Vermin Artillery, Rakachit Mauss Cannon
    300 - Arena Beast
    300 - Arena Beast
    300 - Arena Beast
    4482
    Model count: 189

    Or heck, I'm about to play against this in the final round of nations cup, this is a big army :

    500 - Ruinous Dictator, General, Wizard Adept, Occultism, I am the Senate, Avatar of Udius
    290 - Swarm Priest, Wizard Adept, Witchcraft, Light Armour, Book of Arcane Mastery, Holy Triumvirate, Caelysian Pantheon
    280 - Swarm Priest, Wizard Adept, Thaumaturgy, Light Armour, Crown of Hubris, Holy Triumvirate, Caelysian Pantheon
    210 - Swarm Priest, Wizard Adept, Thaumaturgy, Holy Triumvirate, Caelysian Pantheon
    170 - House Prefect, Pistol, Map of the Deeps, Stygian Overseer
    115 - Vermin Senator
    505 - 60 Vermin Legionaries, Shield and Spear, Without Number, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard (Rending Banner)
    275 - 25 Vermin Legionaries, Shield and Spear, Without Number, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard (Banner of Discipline)
    270 - 40 Vermin Slaves, Without Number, Tunnelling Tools, Musician
    270 - 40 Vermin Slaves, Without Number, Tunnelling Tools, Musician
    270 - 40 Vermin Slaves, Without Number, Tunnelling Tools, Musician
    625 - 6 Murmillo Brutes, Canister Launcher, Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer with Eagle Standard (Aether Icon)
    210 - Vermin Artillery, Rakachit Mauss Cannon
    210 - Vermin Artillery, Rakachit Mauss Cannon
    300 - Arena Beast, Underworld Beast
    4500
    Model count: 219

    ---

    The point: for an already large army, it got decently larger. Especially if you want to run plague disciples in special instead of Brutes, you are easily approaching over 200 models (and I'm not even running slaves or anything like that). And that is just model count... Because of things like Brutes and arena beasts, the armies footprint also likely got decently bigger.

    For an army that was already a pain to travel with because of the high model count and relatively huge and fragile pieces like the pendulum and vermin daemon and bell, it got worse...
  • Lagerlof wrote:


    We (in Sweden) have lots of (usually smaller) tournaments were Supp-books are OK. We had one 2 weeks ago, we have another one in 2 weeks.
    Don't blame the project for your lack of TO's with imagination.

    rolan wrote:

    Then why not simply make them part of the official canon? If they are so balnced that so many tournaments allow their use (in your area it seems), why tell us we need to talk about their use at all? Why not have them just as official as the, well, oficial army books?
    If those things were sipmply useable without special allowance from organizers, yes, I would understand that most armies have supplement lists in addition to the normal book.
    I would even be really glad if that was done, and i think the reasons for complaints would be greatly diminished.


    But as long as you make them inofficial, please don't tell me I would live in the wrong part of the world, that is as helpful as telling me to not go to tournaments, or to make my own rules...
    Alright. You seem set in your unhappy opinions, I see there is no point in having any sort of discussion.
    The parts in green are what I would call a normal discussion, nothing unhappy about it. Actually I would really like the supplements to be official, because while some people might be lucky to get to play them at tournaments, most of us don't.
    The part in red is where I see your comment as offensive, so I answered in kind. (not good style actually, but we both have this problem here it seems)

    I still don't know why plague theme was erased as much as it is, checking the guidelines it would be unproblematic to better include them in the curent LAB.

    If you don't want to have this discussion, fine. You do most likely know the reasons for the decision, though.
  • Davian wrote:

    Why does a VS army have to use 60 legionaires in a unit?

    I take 60 because many units can kill ~20 res 2 def 2 rats in a round of combat. That means a unit of 40, after being charged, is at risk of losing steadfast or being outright destroyed in your own turn. Opponent gets to pivot etc. 50's still risky.

    On other topics:

    I've never heard a single person refer to ninth age fluff at a tournament or even home game so Roman or not it's pretty irrelevant to me.

    I think plague units are too much of the army to have them left to a supplement. No supplements in NZ tournaments anyway :< Not saying they have to be in core but something has to be done to make them more synergistic.
  • rolan wrote:

    Actually I would really like the supplements to be official, because while some people might be lucky to get to play them at tournaments, most of us don't.
    The supplements are as official as anything else, just not part of the core rules. The very nature of the supplement armies follow this: They are off-shoots of the main armies or present alternative ways of playing them. Things like Giants are like-wise add-ons. To make it easy for the team to make creative and fun supplements, we've decided not to make them a core part of the rules and let the players themselves decide if they want to play with these add-ons or stick to the core game.

    This is reflected in the disclaimer:


    Disclaimer wrote:

    All rules in this book are supplementary to the Core Rules of The 9th Age. They are produced by our teams and should be viable for use in any game, but you should seek permission from your opponent or tournament organiser to use, as they significantly increase the complexity of the game

    In the very beginning of these supplements, they did come with a more noticeable "not balanced for tournament play" disclaimer which wasn't entirely accurate and thusly it was changed.
  • So, the supplements are semi-official.... And are often not used at the most competitive tournaments for good reason. - there are already so many rules in this game, having to learn another 5+ books (and more over time) is an effort a lot of players are not super excited to put in.

    Even though they are fun, I generally dislike them being included in tournaments. Its a tricky balance, I know, but I generally land on the "official" side of things. I'm most interested in playing in what is most balanced. I know that not everyone agrees, and not everyone is a tournament player to the extent that I am, but what's where I land. Many think like me... I know if quite a few people who refused to play WTC/Nations Cup because they allowed supplements. I played in them, but I would have preferred no supplements.


    In any case, the main point for this thread is that is it is rather sad that a relatively key part of this armies previous identity is being carved out for a supplement. That's unfortunate and something I think should be rectified no matter what your official view on supplements is.
  • Necrosa wrote:

    arwaker wrote:

    Well, if you want to improve the situation, apply for BGT and write some texts. We all are aware that there is a big discrepancy between Background / Art teams capacity (number of people willing to contribute) and rules teams.
    I'm sorry, I think I wasn't clear.
    I don't criticise any slowness or any content or whatever. I just wanted to emphasize the difference - like the person in the post just before mine - in the choice of organisational process between background and rules. It's not a question of number of people involved in, it's a processing choice.

    I've seen a post above about people and change resistance. It's not fate. Most of time change resistance can be unlocked by participative process and other different methods.

    Meh, if you're only 5 person to write, why do you impose you such a high level of requirement?

    The more background team produce, the more all these person involve themselves in the background conception process, without asking for the community opinion, the more it will be rude if the community disagree.

    That's why, in my opinion, but I don't ask anyone to agree, it's not a problem of job's quality or anything, it's a problem of organizational process.

    That was exactly the same with the WDG.

    I'm sorry if I'm not clear, but I'm really open to discuss this point.

    I'm not really sure what you're saying here.

    Background Team

  • I feel like if you make a supplement plague themed book then a part of the Vermin Swarm identity gets siphoned out and sort of leaves a shell of what people have been grown to like over many years.
    The plague unit and plague character in the LAB feels kinda bland and have lost part of what made them unique.
    At least for me having mobile glass cannon plague units and plague priest combat wizards who really could do some damage and stand in the front line with other plague combat units was a part of what I thought was fun with playing Vermin Swarm.
    I'm not saying I want the OP Disciples back, but I miss that kind of unit who tagged along at the side of other plague ranked units and then went out with a bang, like religious fanatics doing as much damage they can before they die.
    Having the option of fighting wizards also helped with having characters leading units at the front line instead of just cramming all characters in a bunker and even if being by themselves outside a unit was dangerous before it is a non option now. It also fits better with fighting wizards and Occultism.
    Loosing the flail and giving them a generic GW really took a big part of their identity and having them in a rank and file like the rest of the army made them just another of the numerous rank and file units.

    Maybe would be good if they got back a normal Flail without toxic instead of GW and having the option of making a skirmish or light troops unit with max 15? models like the Lion Guard. Also not sure why they only have Agi 3 when they only have Def 2, Res 3, and no save, they prob need AGI 4 as the rest of the army. So all in all I would change GW to Flail, Agi 4, the option of making a 15-20 model skirmish/light troop unit. They are still very fragile with Def 2(Def 1 with flail), Res 3 and no save.
    For the plague wizard I would make them tough enough to be able to join a fighting unit and not get slaughtered in the first combat.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by fadenye ().

  • I don't have the feeling that the Cult of Errahman is too short on stuff. Compare it to House Sicarra for example. Why not complain about the lack of ex-Eshin stuff?

    Afterall, it is difficult to map old clans with new houses and cults. If we concentrate on new alignments, there is 1 unit, 1 magic item, 2 special rules, 1/2 character and 1/2 character mount just reserved for the Cult of Errahman. That is already quite a lot. We still have to consider complexity budgets.

    I was never a big fan of Pestilens, so maybe I don't feel the change that much. But this LAB focus is about the Senatorial army, the ex warrior clans. How to make an Errahman Supplementary book unique if the basic LAB already has too much in it?
  • arwaker wrote:

    I don't have the feeling that the Cult of Errahman is too short on stuff. Compare it to House Sicarra for example. Why not complain about the lack of ex-Eshin stuff?

    Afterall, it is difficult to map old clans with new houses and cults. If we concentrate on new alignments, there is 1 unit, 1 magic item, 2 special rules, 1/2 character and 1/2 character mount just reserved for the Cult of Errahman. That is already quite a lot. We still have to consider complexity budgets.

    I was never a big fan of Pestilens, so maybe I don't feel the change that much. But this LAB focus is about the Senatorial army, the ex warrior clans. How to make an Errahman Supplementary book unique if the basic LAB already has too much in it?
    I thought the concept of a complexity budget is gone?

    Additionally, the number of players who used a "sicarra" army and bought literally hundreds of footpad and assassine models is rather small, as 9th age never emphasized (or even allowed) to play an army with only sicarra units, all you needed was like 50 footpads a couple of shadowfurs and some assassines, those things are still useable, nad their use even feels much like before.
    Plague lost its iconic combat priest, cannot fill core anymore, lost its iconic (mentioned in the guidelines) special weapon, lost its manouverable glass cannon unit, and cannot field the number of models bought and build for that army anymore.
    Additionally, plague armies had their own playstyle, very aggressive, pretty fast and nimble with characters who had a decent punch and would survive in melee. That is all gone.
    (Just answering your question why more people complain about plague theme gone than "Eshin" gone).
  • OK, granted it is possible to play all the models.
    It would be a far cry from playing plague style, as I described. The style of pushing big clumsy blocks towards the enemy in a straight line, as you would have to do with 4+40 plague units plus the obligatory core blocks that behave the same movementwise is very diferent than playing a plague themed army from before.
    So even if the rules allow me to place my models, they don't allow me to play my army, so to say.
  • You mean like playing the "Plague Theme" army composed of Pendulum, Plague Brotherhood, Disciples, Dreadmills, Lightning Cannons and Ratings guns? Well... the new one might even be more flavourful.

    The problem is that currently it is in my opinion not attractive enough to play multiple units of Plague Disciples. I had an idea about how to "solve" this by increasing the Poison aura range of the Pulpit (to maybe 18"). Not sure whether design team has considered this yet.

    However, the general possibility to play a stylish Plague list is already there, it is just not attractive enough yet.
  • rolan wrote:

    OK, granted it is possible to play all the models.
    It would be a far cry from playing plague style, as I described. The style of pushing big clumsy blocks towards the enemy in a straight line, as you would have to do with 4+40 plague units plus the obligatory core blocks that behave the same movementwise is very diferent than playing a plague themed army from before.
    So even if the rules allow me to place my models, they don't allow me to play my army, so to say.
    Can you write down a pre-LAB plague list and play style which which is impossible to play post-LAB? I am really curious about what type of list you used to play and why it can't be played today. :)
  • arwaker wrote:

    I agree with most points, even if I don't consider them as close as severe as you. Except one point: You can still use all the Plague Brother models you have. The list might be a bit infantry centric then, but 4×40 Brethren is still possible. Don't tell me you have more than that.
    Stop using an argument that you don't have, it's not the same and you know it.

    Just accept plague is destroyed and be done with it. Playstyles are destroyed, models invalidated. Done. Argument finished. Not everyone was into it so not everyone is sad about it, this makes sense. But you do not have any right to belittle others opinions on the matter. Some of us have these feelings and it is our right to state them.

    The attempts to convince us that parts of the army, for some the heart of the army, were not taken out is not working. I'm pretty upset about it, and I see no reason that this had to happen. There is no profit in it for anyone and so making other gamers upset was pointless. Its a game by gamers for gamers. This LAB is not really for all the gamers any more. Players like me are now alienated.

    Davian wrote:

    Can you write down a pre-LAB plague list and play style which which is impossible to play post-LAB? I am really curious about what type of list you used to play and why it can't be played today. :)
    Look at my ETC lists from two and three years ago. The way that list was played is now not a possibility.
  • Davian wrote:

    Bogi wrote:

    Look at my ETC lists from two and three years ago. The way that list was played is now not a possibility.
    where can I find them?
    I'm actually not sure, but one list had 0 infantry blocks, except a small unit with the storm banner to catch flyers and a minimal unit to push the pendulum. I also had four units of vanguarding slingers and lots of light troop units.