Are you motivated to play with the new VS book?

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  • Some thoughts:

    I think we should not mix up things. There is this concern of flavour, that there is no real standalone unit for the cernsor guys.
    And there is the concern that there is no unit that offers a similar set of roles on the battlefield.
    But those two concerns have nothing to do with each other, aside from the fact that they regard the same unit. Different people have different concerns, and solving the problem in one way, will not satisfy the other group.
    When complaining about the loss of Censers, please clearly state which is the concern, or maybe a potential solution will not satisfy you.

    Regarding the role of damage output glass cannon, the Dreadmill can be a partial replacement. Maybe they need some work to become attractive, but their intended role can be seen. Just because something is still priced unattractive, does not mean it is a bad design.
    But Dreadmills can not fill the role of skirmishing light melee infantry. But maybe this role is something for the Shadowfurs. Currently they are more of a ranges unit, but small modifications could make them attractive as melee.
    For example:
    Take away paired weapons, but give +1A in statline. Then let them buy back paired weapons as a choice between throwing weapons, pistols and Paired weapons. No big change, but if not taken as ranged unit, their melee power is higher.
  • arwaker wrote:

    Some thoughts:

    I think we should not mix up things. There is this concern of flavour, that there is no real standalone unit for the cernsor guys.
    And there is the concern that there is no unit that offers a similar set of roles on the battlefield.
    But those two concerns have nothing to do with each other, aside from the fact that they regard the same unit. Different people have different concerns, and solving the problem in one way, will not satisfy the other group.
    When complaining about the loss of Censers, please clearly state which is the concern, or maybe a potential solution will not satisfy you.
    In a sense, two birds can be hit by one stone with the return of somethings similar. Plus VS is mainly an infantry army, why should VS not have access to a hard hitting infantry unit that has light troops. It is a missing troop type.


    In another way sense, even if the exact disciples return, they probably would not see any play. There is no broods courage from a core troop, no bonus ranks to ld that is sorely needed, no normal discipline bubble they can rely on.

    Problem at its core is the ld mechanic.


    Regarding the role of damage output glass cannon, the Dreadmill can be a partial replacement. Maybe they need some work to become attractive, but their intended role can be seen. Just because something is still priced unattractive, does not mean it is a bad design.


    A unit that, in fairness, kills itself so easily and can even potentially 20-0 its own side is a very bad design.



    But Dreadmills can not fill the role of skirmishing light melee infantry.


    Not really, one is infantry one is not. There are similar things and it can fulfil the role of infantry support. Chariots have traditionally been a good infantry support team unit.



    But maybe this role is something for the Shadowfurs. Currently they are more of a ranges unit, but small modifications could make them attractive as melee.
    For example:
    Take away paired weapons, but give +1A in statline. Then let them buy back paired weapons as a choice between throwing weapons, pistols and Paired weapons. No big change, but if not taken as ranged unit, their melee power is higher.


    With low ap but poison they would have a different role to the disciples but a role none the less. Skirmishers have not been good cc troops since they stopped merging into a ranked unit upon contact. 9th has definitely made a distinction in what it sees as cc troops and shooting troops. One has light troops one has skirmish. You could do something with them to have two separate entries merged into one but this makes the book even funnier since it again creates more multiple units with one entry kind of thing.
    At the same time, without ld issues in the book being fixed, it might not matter, and while a unit is being added why should it not be plague themed?

  • @Cultivator - slightly repeating myself here.. But I think that would be a much easier pill to swallow if the replacement for units like the old Plague Disciples were in a better space in the current book.

    Let's redesign the Disciples and Pendulum, get them to a point where they are interesting and worth taking, and a lot of the concerns will go away. (maybe not all of them, but it would be a big start).
  • BlackLancer wrote:

    @Cultivator - slightly repeating myself here.. But I think that would be a much easier pill to swallow if the replacement for units like the old Plague Disciples were in a better space in the current book.

    Let's redesign the Disciples and Pendulum, get them to a point where they are interesting and worth taking, and a lot of the concerns will go away. (maybe not all of them, but it would be a big start).
    I completely agree.
  • Necrosa wrote:

    The idea of the Pulpit giving access to Disciples in core (with some limits) - discussed above... or somewhere else - may help.
    I don't even think so. Plague Disciples (one unit) is already very good to have in list.
    Having Disciples in core might probably encourage some people to play a second unit. But on the other hand, having Disciples not anymore in special section will just lead to "Plage themed lists with a lot of tech stuff on top". People will not replace Legionaries and Blackfurs with Disciples but with shooting and Monsters.
  • Just a reminder from the VS Guidelines

    The following styles should be unavailable to VS:
    • Combat armies built around fast shock troops
      Armies that rshes into combat as fast as they can. Hits hard and tries to reak though enemy lines in one swoop. Typical examples are cavalry themes, chariots spam, monster mash.
    • Avoidance, especially MSU
      Avoids enemy most of the game through lateral movement and flee - rally tricks. Chips away at opponents though shooting or well chosen combats.
    • Hero-mash - Multiple solo characters ("cowboys") running around, using their good maneuverability and survivability to attack opponent's where they are weak.
    So don’t come down on the Team, as we’re working within the public guidelines that we have. Rhetorically speaking, do most people really think that the team have never played with or against the Vermin of old? Do we not know what was available before? Now, when the public asks for MSU, how are we to do that when our Guidelines specifically state that “especially MSU” are one of the things “unavailable” to the new Vermin? The constant assumption that we haven’t spent a year looking at many angles and trying to get square pegs into round holes just to bridge the gap between the different camps of what Vermin “means” (which nobody but a handful of people can really attest to) is frustrating. So instead of carte Blanche meh or negativity, try coming up with something that we haven’t already thought about (beating a dead horse). If it is unique and works within the guidelines AND new Vermin, then we have shown that we do take these things into serious consideration.
    B. "MF’ing" Jones - CGL Member

    D.L.- ADT - TT

    Campaign Design-Broken Isles

    Adv. Magic & Giants Design

    PlaytestTeam-Mid Atlantic USA

    Vermin Swarms LAB TT

    The post was edited 1 time, last by skipschnit ().

  • thanks @skipschnit for bringing those guidelines. thats helpfull.

    I personally can live without msu units, which were a massive over-use at some point. But now generally what we are missing here in great sea of rats is some way to answer to single hard-hitting units, solo flyers or other disturbing light units. Shooting in rats is heavily narrowed now, you can`t just turn around and shoot. There is no missile as h.speel (which I missed the most I guess).
    For instance - each casted beast from Shamanism will stop 1 huge block of rats for most of the game, hitting solo from the back.

    Without small hard-hitting units like we have seen Censers (S5 + toxic impacts) or old-fashioned Globadiers (4+ no matter Res) we currently have no answer when something lands between blocks. Arena Beast with random move can help, but that is a partiall solution only.

    Hope I made my point clear enough?
    Szary


    web: www.figartes.com | twitter: @figartes | instagram: @figartes
  • Been reading the guidelines that was posted a long ago so my info might be outdated and changed. Is there a newer one?
    Guidelines

    The primary play styles for VS should be
    • Jack of All trades / allround army with a mix of ranked infantry, support units and ranged damage. A Mix of the two extremes given below
    • Ranged focus with tarpits and counter charge
      I.e. shooting is the main damage dealing tool. Used to kill or weaken enemy units enough to finish them with glass-cannon support units. Tarpits and chaff are used to buy extra turns of shooting.
    • Combat focused with ranked infantry and combat support
      Classic anvil and hammer tactics. Anvils are big blocks of infantry. Hammers are support combat units, e,g, glasscannon light troops and monsters.
    The army should convey a feeling of being a horde army with very basic / expendable units with low equipment quality as backbone supported by specialised units which have a higher eliteness. Specialized units include melee specialists, ranged specialists and Infiltrators.

    Specialist units on the other hand have high quality gear, meaning either magically enhanced (e.g. plague flails), high-tech (e.g. dreadmills, jezzalis), or both (e.g. cannons).
    Just saying that they can have high quality magically enhanced gear not that they should specifically have plague flails again.

    Glasscannon light troops are actually in all of the three primary play styles for VS. So it fits perfectly but we don't have any light troop combat infantry now, so Plague Disciples would be a good fit for that. Shadowfur Stalkers are not really a hammer unit and are more focused on avoidance with skirmish shooting.
    We actually have two skirmish shooting avoidance units which is more against the guidelines then having light troops combat units. They do however have a limited range(8-12") so the avoidance part is significantly restricted when shooting, as it probably should be.
    Having a combat wizard does not seem to go against the guidelines, it just should not be a super elite combat wizard, more like a "hero" and not a "lord".
  • Yeah somehow those guidelines posted by @skipschnit are also a surprise to me. It seems that the spirit of the army has not been catered to.

    Also stating guidelines are only an excuse. It has been created by you. I don't really care that these guidelines are even present. The only thing players really care about is the final product and anything else that has been created can not be used as an excuse.

    It's as if you get a guy to paint your house and he chops of the one arm and then does a shotty job and claims it is because he chopped his arm off.
  • Bogi wrote:

    Yeah somehow those guidelines posted by @skipschnit are also a surprise to me. It seems that the spirit of the army has not been catered to.

    Also stating guidelines are only an excuse. It has been created by you. I don't really care that these guidelines are even present. The only thing players really care about is the final product and anything else that has been created can not be used as an excuse.

    It's as if you get a guy to paint your house and he chops of the one arm and then does a shotty job and claims it is because he chopped his arm off.
    Oh we're back here again. Everyone had a chance to put in their two cents for the guidelines. Disagree the spirit of the army hasn't been catered to.

  • Bogi wrote:

    It's as if you get a guy to paint your house and he chops of the one arm and then does a shotty job and claims it is because he chopped his arm off.
    Wrong analogy.

    It's more like a company saying "we're building a free house here you can move in once it's finished. The color is gonna be some form of red, we're talking about 2-3 stories high, there's not gonna be a cellar".

    And some people are now frustrated that there's no cellar and it's not painted blue.
  • There was a poll before the guidelines. And then, guidelines were published with ask for validation by the community. Guidelines are still available.

    However, I think the problem is more :
    - that it must have been really difficult to translate those guidelines to a whole army list
    - that, sometime, you only realise what you asked for when you're in front of it.
  • Krarks wrote:

    Bogi wrote:

    It's as if you get a guy to paint your house and he chops of the one arm and then does a shotty job and claims it is because he chopped his arm off.
    Wrong analogy.
    It's more like a company saying "we're building a free house here you can move in once it's finished. The color is gonna be some form of red, we're talking about 2-3 stories high, there's not gonna be a cellar".

    And some people are now frustrated that there's no cellar and it's not painted blue.
    But you went with that specific company because they were famous for doing buildings in red and with a cellar.
  • Cultivator wrote:

    Bogi wrote:

    Yeah somehow those guidelines posted by @skipschnit are also a surprise to me. It seems that the spirit of the army has not been catered to.

    Also stating guidelines are only an excuse. It has been created by you. I don't really care that these guidelines are even present. The only thing players really care about is the final product and anything else that has been created can not be used as an excuse.

    It's as if you get a guy to paint your house and he chops of the one arm and then does a shotty job and claims it is because he chopped his arm off.
    Oh we're back here again. Everyone had a chance to put in their two cents for the guidelines. Disagree the spirit of the army hasn't been catered to.

    not everybody sees every part of the Forum, not everybody participates in every discussion that turns out important for him. Additionally those guidelines would allow for a very different book than the one we got, so we Don t even know what Talk produces what outcome.
    The spirit of the army was not "weak masses" for everybody, crazy inventors or plague loving cultists or mad bio-scientists were the spirit for some of us.
    So claiming the spirit was contained is wrong as soon as a Part of the army is gone, because all parts of the army as it was defined the spirit.
  • I'd say the crazy inventor theme is stronger than it has been for several editions, with so many different kinds of drills and two kinds of wheels. Do I wish they had properly dangerous malfunctions? Sure. But the unti selection is nice and wide. The biology is still woefully missing, but I hope that can be filled out later. Or I'll homebrew it.

    I mean, my dream Fetthis book would play like old-fashioned tyranids, with two dozen possible mutations on every unit.
  • Krarks wrote:

    Bogi wrote:

    It's as if you get a guy to paint your house and he chops of the one arm and then does a shotty job and claims it is because he chopped his arm off.
    Wrong analogy.
    It's more like a company saying "we're building a free house here you can move in once it's finished. The color is gonna be some form of red, we're talking about 2-3 stories high, there's not gonna be a cellar".

    And some people are now frustrated that there's no cellar and it's not painted blue.
    Wrong analogy.