Discussion of the inofficial DH Homebrew from Dain_II and xaby86 (based on ideas from the wishlisting thread)

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    • Discussion of the inofficial DH Homebrew from Dain_II and xaby86 (based on ideas from the wishlisting thread)

      @xaby86 @WarX @Lakson @Firthunands91 @Cam @berti @wombat @Squigkikka @Fnarrr @Zwei @Loghaire @Pellegrim @Omarcomin @Herminard @ilovepeanut @Frar @Sander @grungimusic @Danrakh @Ironclad @Kreln @Norn @Folomo @Blingley @Magua @TheChange @PhearTheHam @Bagbar @Karak-ulo @Druzi Darkfist @dan @Wohoel @subspace @pjosef @Krarks @Davian @Kallstrom @bluntpencil2001 @Porw @kgkid @Happy Aspid @Vitnar @Chrisorc @Wesser @ZardukZarakhil @Bulls Eye @Ciara @setrius @Angrosch @Windlass @KhaN9292 @Peacemaker @BondageGoatZombie @jirga @Echunia @DwarfBalin @Kal @Giacomo MN @Grabbhalva @ferny @Baldin @Nox @arwaker @Giladis @Thargrimn @Redbeard @calcathin @Mojzesz @IntrigueAtCourt @Tonko @DanT @umbranar @Rothulf @Tyranno @Just_Flo @Traumdieb @warhamsterpainting @john doc @simonbromley @RumbaRoy @Shukran @Col. Tartleton @Hubcik @MASTERWIRED @Alexwellace @Jomppexx @Kleryk @tumti_rumti @Scumboogie @houba @Slayer Zabojcow @SlaveToThePyre @Xingu79 @Thunderforge @Salgar @WhammeWhamme @Magua @Nerocrossius @HappyCan303 @Gingersmali @Eru @Sodder @Aenarion43 @deejwii @mrwyrwiflak @Ghiznuk @greentide @Bash @Fontetas @evisor @Mercenary Armies @VampsinMD @Atreyu @Crazydwarf

      Ok. My turn. Be brutal boys.

      I've tagged everyone who has posted in the DH LAB or 2.2 discussion threads with interest in our army in 2021. It's so encouraging to see such a big community invested in our army.

      This is my Blueprint for a future DH LAB. A massive thanks to @xaby86 for working this through with me and for being so accepting of the somewhat brutal cuts I made to his original design.

      And a massive thanks to you all. Some of you may well recognize some of your ideas here either shamelessly copied or thematically represented.

      Fair warnings:
      1. Some of you may not appreciate my new Friends...
      2. This doc contains a number of ideas that are testing the water.
      Files
      :rune:

      The post was edited 8 times, last by Dain_II ().

    • Quick review.
      • The new HotM rules is similar to ID early betas, being rules inside the rules. I don't like that. Not sure the conditional buffs you added are that great, either. I like Swiftstride from Grudges, the other 2 don't make that much sense to me being tied to grudges.
      • What's the point of -3 to start the game.
      • Tying Victory Points to items seems like a dangerous path. I'm not sure that would be approved.
      • Clan rule looks like an interesting idea. An infantry based army most probably needs some kind of countercharge/movement mechanic to work in this game.
      • Seen it all and Venerable. +1.
      • Shield wall rule is too spikey, not a fan.
      • I like sturdy being activated when charged or losing a combat. Feels dwarfy.
      • Runes + ancestral power seem like a pain in the *** to balance. Their base stat is quite poor in some cases, when the ancient one is too good. Not a fan of merging current runes.
      • The rain is a cool mechanic.
      • I like the magic attribute. Moving away from bound spells while not being able to use more than 3 dices for each casting seems like a fitting solution.
      • Clan leader, Master of the Guild. +1
      • Mounts +1
      • Mining crew +1


      Will continue reading...
      Armies I play: :O&G: :SE_bw: :OK: :EoS: :BH: :DH: :ID:
      My hobby's Blog
    • Seen It All: Universal Rule.
      Discipline rolls by models with Seen It All are minimized. If a unit with Seen It All is joined by the General of the army,
      who also has Seen It All, all friendly units in its Commanding Presence are affected.


      Very good.


      For the King. Universal Rule.
      The unit is considered Stubborn as long as it is within the
      King's Command Presence range
      .

      Same very good concept.


      I haven’t read everything...

      my general impression:
      the codex is too rich (too many combos, rules and unique mechanics)
      the codex is too strong (it loses many of its weaknesses)

      There are a lot of nice ideas, in any case I congratulate you for the work:)
    • Firthunands91 wrote:

      Quick review.
      • The new HotM rules is similar to ID early betas, being rules inside the rules. I don't like that. Not sure the conditional buffs you added are that great, either. I like Swiftstride from Grudges, the other 2 don't make that much sense to me being tied to grudges.
      • What's the point of -3 to start the game.
      • Tying Victory Points to items seems like a dangerous path. I'm not sure that would be approved.
      • Clan rule looks like an interesting idea. An infantry based army most probably needs some kind of countercharge/movement mechanic to work in this game.
      • Seen it all and Venerable. +1.
      • Shield wall rule is too spikey, not a fan.
      • I like sturdy being activated when charged or losing a combat. Feels dwarfy.
      • Runes + ancestral power seem like a pain in the *** to balance. Their base stat is quite poor in some cases, when the ancient one is too good. Not a fan of merging current runes.
      • The rain is a cool mechanic.
      • I like the magic attribute. Moving away from bound spells while not being able to use more than 3 dices for each casting seems like a fitting solution.
      • Clan leader, Master of the Guild. +1
      • Mounts +1
      • Mining crew +1


      Will continue reading...
      When the summer is over and work slows down a bit, I'll do a V2 with the aim of lightening up the rules and all that.

      Quick answer to your questions.
      1) HotM and Ancient Grudges will pretty much become the Dain version. They are simpler. It is possible that Swiftstride will go with Lorekeeper.
      2) -1 to initiative to a maximum of -3 was a means of control to compensate for the possibility of Ancient Grudges being too strong. I thought I needed a disadvantage to balance and thought that might stick with dwarves, kind of like the more grievance they have towards an army, the more calmly they take things to make it all work out. In my head it worked, but that's going to go away.
      3) Yeah, that will probably go away too, it was an attempt to give DH a chance to take a chance on bigger wins or losses.
      4) That's staying for sure
      5) I like that you like it
      6) This rule was proposed in the Brainstorming thread and I thought it was very thematic. I imagine it as in the shield wall the dwarves save with the shield between them, not just themselves, which boosts my vision of Clan united.
      7) Cool, maybe it needs a new name.
      8) I'll keep an eye on it. Do you think the effects are poor? I think I made some very interesting runes, maybe not all of them, others were a bit of filler, yes.
      9) Cool!
      10) Actually it's a perfect mix of Bound spells and a normal path. It has 6 spells plus an A like a normal path, it has the 2 and 3 dice and no failure part of Bound spells and it has random values to give it some fun, which again brings it closer to standard magic.
      11) ^^
      12) :)
      13) :love:

      Now, as Dain said, you should read the book at the bottom, not the one in the Dropbox, which is mine and I'm not here to take away from his work.
    • A few things springing to mind

      - Rune ofStorms and Rune of Reflect does what you think it do?

      - Unit of Forge Repeaters? Interesting at least… wonder if it Can be balanced

      - Love Kings Guard design

      - Superior Design on Crossbows comes with a Big “no way”

      - Natural Sprinters is an interesting addition, but I like the idea of Swiftstride against Grudged units better

      - Clan… I see the point.. But I fear its a huge time sink (enemies having to gouge how Clans Can move and charge after this move) and Will actually be counterproductive especially with Mithril armour improving DH resilience. Will anything that isnt a deathstar EVER charge a DH unit again?
    • Wesser wrote:

      A few things springing to mind

      - Rune ofStorms and Rune of Reflect does what you think it do?


      Can you elaborate on the question. They seem pretty clear to me...


      - Unit of Forge Repeaters? Interesting at least… wonder if it Can be balanced

      With price of plus 30ppm?



      - Love Kings Guard design

      :thumbup:



      - Superior Design on Crossbows comes with a Big “no way”


      Why?


      - Natural Sprinters is an interesting addition, but I like the idea of Swiftstride against Grudged units better


      Dwarfs need to increase our threat range. This does that and keeps us the slowest army in T9A. Swiftstride is kept for seekers.


      - Clan… I see the point.. But I fear its a huge time sink (enemies having to gouge how Clans Can move and charge after this move) and Will actually be counterproductive especially with Mithril armour improving DH resilience. Will anything that isnt a deathstar EVER charge a DH unit again?


      Mithril armour actually makes DH less resilient. Other than forge wardens and a few Friends, no unit in DH has an Aegis save anymore that's not on a character.
      :rune:
    • Dain_II wrote:

      Wesser wrote:

      A few things springing to mind

      - Rune ofStorms and Rune of Reflect does what you think it do?


      Can you elaborate on the question. They seem pretty clear to me...

      Rune of Storms need to specify it works in opponent movement phase. Rune of Reflect intended to work on bearer or bearers unit?


      - Unit of Forge Repeaters? Interesting at least… wonder if it Can be balanced

      With price of plus 30ppm?

      Quick to Fire makes Them so very hard to balance and they are only slightly more expensive than a Pathfinder. I think 48ppm is a bit cheap for their potential, but theres a limit on how much you Can price a 1-wound model.

      - Love Kings Guard design

      :thumbup:



      - Superior Design on Crossbows comes with a Big “no way”


      Why?
      DH already have Forge Wardens and Copters. As much as we wanna stay clear of gunlines DH shouldnt be too much a move-and-fire army

      - Natural Sprinters is an interesting addition, but I like the idea of Swiftstride against Grudged units better


      Dwarfs need to increase our threat range. This does that and keeps us the slowest army in T9A. Swiftstride is kept for seekers.

      Still a bit little. And I like better that you choise grudged units. Matter of taste


      - Clan… I see the point.. But I fear its a huge time sink (enemies having to gouge how Clans Can move and charge after this move) and Will actually be counterproductive especially with Mithril armour improving DH resilience. Will anything that isnt a deathstar EVER charge a DH unit again?


      Mithril armour actually makes DH less resilient. Other than forge wardens and a few Friends, no unit in DH has an Aegis save anymore that's not on a character.


      Missed that. But still think it complicates matters too much


    • Wesser wrote:

      Dain_II wrote:

      Wesser wrote:

      A few things springing to mind

      - Rune ofStorms and Rune of Reflect does what you think it do?

      Can you elaborate on the question. They seem pretty clear to me...

      Rune of Storms need to specify it works in opponent movement phase. Rune of Reflect intended to work on bearer or bearers unit?

      Either movement phase for Storms. Bearers unit for Reflect.


      - Superior Design on Crossbows comes with a Big “no way”

      Why?
      DH already have Forge Wardens and Copters. As much as we wanna stay clear of gunlines DH shouldnt be too much a move-and-fire army

      The Firing Line is as restricted as it is now: 35%. So you'll need to make choices as you do now.

      And I completely disagree on your reasoning for Superior Design. Taking away unwieldly in no way turns DH into a move-and-fire army. The crossbows aren't quick to fire. They will take the -1 to hit penalty from move and shoot. That's still 6s at long range and 5s at short if they move. Think about those numbers and then explain to me why an army who should be strong at shooting should be hitting on 7s and 6s if they move before any cover considerations enter into things.



      :rune:
    • Dain_II wrote:

      Wesser wrote:

      Dain_II wrote:

      Wesser wrote:

      The crossbows aren't quick to fire. They will take the -1 to hit penalty from move and shoot. That's still 6s at long range and 5s at short if they move. Think about those numbers and then explain to me why an army who should be strong at shooting should be hitting on 7s and 6s if they move before any cover considerations enter into things.



      (Spoiler: having Aim 3+ without rules nonsense that takes away penalties). :D
    • I'd like to start by saying great work!

      Overall I only have few issues
      - Too many unit upgrades/options
      - Too many special rules and mechanisms
      - I personally don't like Large Cav nor the giagantic
      - Overall I think some things are just simply OP and would never fly with the balancing team.( Seekers with S5, S4 Miners in core and so on..)

      Some excellent ideas though
      - Magic phase looks great, especially battle runes themselves
      -Runic system as well looks like it's useful and well balanced
      - Mithral armour is another helpful idea
      - Seen it all rule...
      - there are probably many more interesting things in there but I forgot them already :)

      I would strongly suggest for the LAB team (when the time comes) to look at this as an inspiration and maybe even sort of a cheat sheet..

      Once again magnificent work!
    • xaby86 wrote:

      Dain_II wrote:

      Wesser wrote:

      Dain_II wrote:

      Wesser wrote:

      The crossbows aren't quick to fire. They will take the -1 to hit penalty from move and shoot. That's still 6s at long range and 5s at short if they move. Think about those numbers and then explain to me why an army who should be strong at shooting should be hitting on 7s and 6s if they move before any cover considerations enter into things.



      (Spoiler: having Aim 3+ without rules nonsense that takes away penalties). :D
      :P So, to put my view on this to the community (which @xaby86 knows) these rules are necessary. Dwarfs shouldn't suck at shooting but we're not elves. We shouldn't have their aim. Hitting at short range on 3s should not be something a dwarf archer can do. They should hit at best on 4+. Our advantage are our weapons. They're better designed and more powerful even if we don't have any magic arrows.
      :rune:
    • Nice work @Dain_II

      My take:
      1. Like the wolfram take, not able to assess the total effect
      2. Great work on the Ancient grudges, might be a bit complex (or large worded). I would replace non-cult for Clan-only
      3. Clan is fantastic
      4. Cult of the hunter god: why not move Frenzy, stubborn, fearless in here as well, might make it less of a puzzle. Or just move these special rules into the profile and make Cult a tag only for joining units etc.
      5. Venerable Elder refers to the next special rule only, why not use that one instead in the profile?
      6. Natural sprinters: +1
      7. Nerves of steel: +1
      8. Shield wall: +1
      9. Ancestral power: +1
      10. Do the battle runes come with a cost, or are they include in all units?
      11. Army organization: it looks like the books consists of 2 separate armies, or that an auxiliary is automatically included in the main. Excluding the use of Arsenal when using friends and vice versa seems overly restrictive/complex.
      12. Characters: I like what you did to the thane, to give him a separate use in Clan
      13. I struggle to understand the Mountain Steward, or at least to place him in the army, he's either a cavalryman or a ranger? Don't get me wrong I like him, but if you take him as ranger you auto exclude any arsenal
      14. Guildmaster engineer: I'm missing the copter mount...
      15. Mounts: I'm missing the copter mount
      16. Yeah, a warplatform anvil! +1
      17. Is the mountain goat base size is typo?
      18. Why the limit on 20 for the artificers? The 25 (or even 30) on the current quarrelers seem acceptable. They are already limited by the category
      19. I'd remove Clan from Kingsguard and Deep watch, as this seems to be more of a Hold job, instead of part of the clans.
      20. Hold guardians and Mountain golems seem somewhat redundant, supernal vs runic
      21. Ranger: my biggest regret is seeing skirmish only. For me, evn DH scout should be able to do ranked patrol. think of the footprint of 2 units of 20 skirmishers
      22. Is the mountain ballista also part of the firing line? otherwise ballista's are always on top of any restrictions
      23. You've made Forge guns proper flamethrowers, a bit worried about the special rules inside special rules though
      24. A unit of 10 forge repeaters sparks my interest, even though I don't have any forge wardens and dislike guns (hand, forge or cannon)
      25. Copter: you can take a bare copter, without shooting? hoorayh, only to bad it's only max 2 models for any type of copter. I have 4... I'd love to operate this unit as a unit of 3 or 4
      26. I'd remove the expeditionary Force copter from the Arsenal, to be able to use them with the friends of the mountain. I think the options for both option will add significant in points, stacked together
      27. The aironaught, huge modelling potential! it's either a zeppelin or a mining machine?
      28. Flame cannon, here is where I'd expect divine fire. too bad there's no war platform flame cannon
      29. Why the nerf on the catapult? I see it's half price, but it's worse than a orclobber
      30. Why the strength nerf on the cannon and catapult?
      31. This Organ gun will never see use, the cannon is a better organ gun.
      32. Heavy mountain goats, I really like them, in this incarnation, even thoug I'd normally be in favor of no-cav, these 40x40 cav really rock!
      33. Hey cool some sort of great green idol huge golem! I like it, great modelling options
      Overall I very much like the ideas, but think that the book is as yet a bit convoluted and packed with units
      Anyway, thanks for the massive effort
    • Kreln wrote:

      I'd like to start by saying great work!

      Overall I only have few issues
      - Too many unit upgrades/options

      Don't read @xaby86s... ;)
      - Too many special rules and mechanisms
      See above. Could you also tell me which ones you'd get rid of and why. And which ones you really like.
      - I personally don't like Large Cav nor the giagantic
      Is it that they exist or you don't like the way they're designed? And have you noticed that if you want a traditional DH army, you actually can't take any of my new Friends?
      - Overall I think some things are just simply OP and would never fly with the balancing team.( Seekers with S5, S4 Miners in core and so on..)

      Miners are only 1 ambush unit in Core. Still to much? Why?

      Seekers, glad you mentioned them. What you think of the design? Specifically. And why OP?

      :rune:
    • Dain_II wrote:

      xaby86 wrote:

      Dain_II wrote:

      Wesser wrote:

      Dain_II wrote:

      Wesser wrote:

      The crossbows aren't quick to fire. They will take the -1 to hit penalty from move and shoot. That's still 6s at long range and 5s at short if they move. Think about those numbers and then explain to me why an army who should be strong at shooting should be hitting on 7s and 6s if they move before any cover considerations enter into things.



      (Spoiler: having Aim 3+ without rules nonsense that takes away penalties). :D
      :P So, to put my view on this to the community (which @xaby86 knows) these rules are necessary. Dwarfs shouldn't suck at shooting but we're not elves. We shouldn't have their aim. Hitting at short range on 3s should not be something a dwarf archer can do. They should hit at best on 4+. Our advantage are our weapons. They're better designed and more powerful even if we don't have any magic arrows.
      You advantage arguably lies in options for greatweapon or 4+ AS with Mithril and Parry on Res4 Profile. Oh and the benefits of Nerves of Steel.

      Thats already kind of a Big package over an elven archer, so at best I think you are underestimating the cost of the unit quite severely. But points are tweakable

      At worst you have a lot of rules (including rules that makes exceptions to Main book rules) on a Core unit


      Ill look over the rest more proper later
    • I like the grudge system. It makes sense, seems dwarfy, and enables choice by making enemies think what unit they want to destroy a unit with. It might enable suicidal MSU units to get more grudges though, which doesn't feel super dwarfy, but would have to get playtested.

      Friends of the Mountain vs The Arsenal is.. Honestly kind of meh. I know some people won't like the friends, but I don't think segregating them this way is the solution. If they're going to be part of the book, they should just be accepted into it wholesale. Restricting what kinds of armies can be made, with a mediocre fluff explanation and very little gameplay need, just because some people might not like the concept is not ideal.

      Clan rule is interesting, but impossible to tell how good it is without playtesting. Seems very strong in theory.

      Natural Sprinters should just be Devastating Charge (+1 Adv) to avoid nesting rules and introducing unnecessary rules.

      Mithril Heavy Armour + Shield Wall combined probably makes units way too tanky on average. Most of the book has an effective armor value of 5 in close combat. This level of eliteness would quickly have to be compensated in point costs, and probably to a degree that would be found unpalatable. I'm sure someone can run the math, but I think regular speardwarves beat most of the elite infantry from the other books. Unkillable but relatively immobile units would also lead to a lot of games where the other side is just forced to play avoidance for the entire game, as engaging would be suicide, and this just leads to more 10-10 matches overall.

      I like the design for Miners and King's Guard. The latter might have to be watched, as stubborn spam might be incredibly obnoxious to deal with. With KG and Seekers, entire special could be filled with stubborn models.

      Seekers are probably worse than before. Yer Comin' With Me is an incredibly powerful rule, and I don't think Aegis 6+ compensates.

      I really like different units being able to spend Veil Tokens to get beneficial effects, from the Hold Guardians to the Ballistas and so on. I think more could be done with this.

      Big Bessy is.. Well, let's just say that a 96'' 5x5 s4 ap1 mw1D3+1 catapult probably needs to cost a handful more points, even without the special rules it has.

      Copters must always choose a weapon that costs 20 points or more. Just increase the cost of the unit by 20 and drop the cost of the weapons by 20, to improve clarity. I'm also not sure why they have Musician.

      Mountain Golems don't need Magical Attacks, since they get them from being Supernal anyway. Ditto Ancestor Mountain Guardian.