Speculation about future new T9A factions

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  • Speculation about future new T9A factions

    This converstaion originates from Return of the Warhammer Old World by GW?, in the Other Games forum.
    Since it is of general interest, I bring it here.

    BlackLobster wrote:

    If GW release models for Cathay and Kislev, would T9A add equivalent armies to the game or would they just fall under an Empire style?

    DanT wrote:

    (not commenting in staff role)

    BlackLobster wrote:

    If GW release models for Cathay and Kislev, would T9A add equivalent armies to the game or would they just fall under an Empire style?
    It is always complicated/difficult to deal in hypotheticals in any vaguely definitive way, but generally speaking t9a doesn't introduce any factions based on the actions of any single manufacturer, GW or otherwise.
    More generally, to my knowledge the possibility of none-homebrew t9a factions that aren't one of the 16 core factions, or a supplement for one of the core factions, is not really gonna be on anyone's to-do list any time soon.
    That's not to say it won't happen, and there were discussions in the past...
    I'm just saying that right now the focus/priority is on the 16 LABs (and their supplements as a lesser priority).

    I think anything beyond the LABs and their supplements, whether TOW/GW/Cathay/Kislev related or not, is somewhat speculative and unclear right now.

    But of course none of this stops any motivated community members from doing whatever they want with their own homebrews.

    Giladis wrote:

    What @DanT said the Project is currently focused on completing the existing 16 Core Army Books before exploring the development of the 2 final Core Army Books to complete the nine spoked wheel of T9A factions.

    What those two will be it is nearly impossible to say at the moment. Tsuandan (T9A equivalent of China) is a possible contender as are a number of other polities and groups mentioned in the T9A background such as Khogi or Sagarika. Though such development is many years in the future.


    What T9A will not do is produce additional material based on the work of just one company, whether that are units or armies. :)

    Hombre de Mundo wrote:

    Giladis wrote:

    What T9A will not do is produce additional material based on the work of just one company, whether that are units or armies. :)

    DanT wrote:

    generally speaking t9a doesn't introduce any factions based on the actions of any single manufacturer, GW or otherwise.
    For those that are curious or may have hazy memories of adapting new GW creations, in the very nascence of T9A there was a goal to do just that:

    2015 wrote:

    1. Rewriting rules for broken parts of the game, keeping the parts that works and changing the parts that do not
    2. Small updates to rules with minor issues
    3. New lores (keep some spells, around 30-40% new spells for each lore, updates to attributes, casting values etc where needed)
    4. New magic items (both common and race specific, again keep some, add some new stuff)
    5. New points costs for very strong/weak units (maybe rules changes in a few cases)
    6. Possibly add new unit entries to match new models released for AoS.
    Thankfully, we've become more independent-minded since :)

    Giladis wrote:

    Hombre de Mundo wrote:

    For those that are curious or may have hazy memories of adapting new GW creations, in the very nascence of T9A there was a goal to do just that:
    Yeah before the lovely people from the Legal Team taught us better :D

    Eldan wrote:

    I mean, Volskaja and Tsuandan already have more background than some official factions (cough cough dwarves cough). At this rate, they are basically guaranteed to become supplements.

    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Eldan wrote:

    I mean, Volskaja and Tsuandan already have more background than some official factions (cough cough dwarves cough). At this rate, they are basically guaranteed to become supplements.
    While there are people (internally and just in the community) who want this to happen, "basically guaranteed" is overselling it.

    Eldan wrote:

    I mean, there's four candidates more or less for Imperial supplements. Tsuandan, Volskaja, Khogi and Destria. Destria barely has any fluff. If the Empire gets two supplements like everyone else, it pretty much has to be at least one of them. Who else is there?

    Giladis wrote:

    I seriously doubt any of those would even contend for EoS Army Supplements.


    Army Supplements are here for the TT to explore parts of the T9A background they were unable to fully or properly cover in the LAB due to the Complexity Budget restraints. This means EoS supplement being anything else than something relating to EoS is highly unlikely. :)

    jirga wrote:

    Koghi Empire would get my vote or anything from Taphria to be honest. Core army book for an army from Taphria would surely be something not seen before.

    Giladis wrote:

    (not commenting as staff)

    jirga wrote:

    Koghi Empire would get my vote or anything from Taphria to be honest. Core army book for an army from Taphria would surely be something not seen before.
    Rather than another human faction, I would like to see a T9A unique faction both visually and background wise. There is a lot of space left in T9A that has not been assigned to anyone yet.

    If looking to introduce Taphria into the main T9A orbit outside UD I would personally explore drawing inspiration from various insect populations such as south African Anthills, Saharan lion ant pits, etc...


    On the other hand, if focusing on Oceania why not a fantasy race inspired by Marsupials or Grounded Avians? Plenty of examples for both.

    Monsieur Ramior wrote:

    @Giladis Antropomorphic fantasy for representing non-european faction is pretty cliché, also this day with internet is pretty easy to research aboot the foklore of non-european culture, heck "Legendary games" have realise several D&D suplement to make some of this creature to be playable with D&D, you could use this book to make a brand new faction.

    Also on other topic, what I'm the most ecxited for with the "canonisation" of Cathay are the artwork that will come, especially from Karl Koponski (is he still working with GW ?).

    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Eldan wrote:

    I mean, there's four candidates more or less for Imperial supplements. Tsuandan, Volskaja, Khogi and Destria. Destria barely has any fluff. If the Empire gets two supplements like everyone else, it pretty much has to be at least one of them. Who else is there?

    Giladis wrote:

    I seriously doubt any of those would even contend for EoS Army Supplements.


    Army Supplements are here for the TT to explore parts of the T9A background they were unable to fully or properly cover in the LAB due to the Complexity Budget restraints. This means EoS supplement being anything else than something relating to EoS is highly unlikely. :)
    As I said, "basically guaranteed" would be overselling it.

    I think Giladis is overselling the converse case, however. The currently released supplements depict different cultures that are not really part of the main book ; Askland and Makhar include non-Dark-Gods-Worshipping members on a background level, cultists are not in fact daemons themselves and the Hobgoblins are subservient to the Infernal Dwarves, not actually members thereof.

    Now, firming up a policy of "everything must be something that could have been in the main book on a flavour level" is possible - but policies change over time in response to events and outcomes.

    Tsuandan, on a mechanical level, is a pretty good fit for a supplement; one could easily repurpose mostly slim-book EoS units to make a fairly good "this is the humans of a fantasy nation that is much like China was" and then add a few units for spice - making a very Asklanders-style book.

    Either way, now is a good time to speak up and be heard. Policies are harder to change the more entrenched they are - so if you dislike the idea of minor factions getting supplements and want supplements to solely focus on things that could be in the main book, or vice versa, there's no time like the present to let that be heard.

    Giladis wrote:

    (not commenting as staff)

    jirga wrote:

    Koghi Empire would get my vote or anything from Taphria to be honest. Core army book for an army from Taphria would surely be something not seen before.
    Rather than another human faction, I would like to see a T9A unique faction both visually and background wise. There is a lot of space left in T9A that has not been assigned to anyone yet.
    If looking to introduce Taphria into the main T9A orbit outside UD I would personally explore drawing inspiration from various insect populations such as south African Anthills, Saharan lion ant pits, etc...


    On the other hand, if focusing on Oceania why not a fantasy race inspired by Marsupials or Grounded Avians? Plenty of examples for both.
    Because historical model ranges exist, but not so many kangaroo warriors?

    Because even if you want a fantasy species, you could base them on non-European myths and legends rather than basing them on exotic wildlife and deciding the people who live in those regions are entirely beneath the notice of a game that takes the time to go into exacting detail on minor details of European cultures?

    Giladis wrote:

    Monsieur Ramior wrote:

    Antropomorphic fantasy for representing non-european faction is pretty cliché
    I agree that it is quite common and often includes unsavoury undertones.

    Monsieur Ramior wrote:

    also this day with internet is pretty easy to research aboot the foklore of non-european culture
    I am not talking about taking a real-world culture from those areas as inspiration for developing non-human faction, but developing something completely new from the ground up. Start with biological and geographic influences and develop a culture from that by evolving it through time. Sort of type of work that is done by speculative zoologists and anthropologists when asked to imagine what an alien culture would look like.

    jirga wrote:

    Availability of models would be my argument for human Taphria faction.

    edit. Also human armies look better than an assortment of animals.

    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Giladis wrote:

    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    The currently released supplements depict different cultures that are not really part of the main book ; Askland and Makhar include non-Dark-Gods-Worshipping members on a background level, cultists are not in fact daemons themselves and the Hobgoblins are subservient to the Infernal Dwarves, not actually members thereof.
    You are mixing in-world factions with in-game factions. There is a strong overlap between the two but it is not absolute.
    Also, there is no prohibition on developing free-standing supplementary factions outside the Core Game. This means Tsuandan getting their own mini book is possible without it being attached to any of the existing Core Army Books.
    1) I'm going to ask you to define "in-game faction", because you didn't include enough detail for me to meaningfully agree or disagree with your assertion.

    2) There is absolutely a prohibition on doing so; "don't waste project resources on stuff like that, we have more important things to do" is a prohibition. It might be a temporary prohibition, but "sometime once the entire rest of the game-line is out, if we don't immediately throw everything we have into a different priority" seems awfully similar to "no" but with more words.

    Until and unless the first "free-standing supplementary faction team" is formed, they are defacto prohibited.

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  • When discussing what T9A 17th and 18th factions could be, or what EoS Supplement factions could be, bear in mind that we're talking about a very remote future, so anything can be only pure speculation.
    To my best knowledge, the only decision already made is that the 17th faction should be named Iron Crowns.

    Not decided to the day:
    - which cultures will be included in IC is not defined at this stage. Arcalea, sure, but beyond?
    - what could be the 18th faction is not defined. Not even which race it is likely to represent, nor which continent it should come from.
    - to have 2 supplements per faction is NOT a decision which has been made.

    -=-=-

    Hombre de Mundo wrote:

    2015 wrote:

    6. Possibly add new unit entries to match new models released for AoS.

    @Hombre de Mundo, please note that Cathay and Kislev seem to be new factions, not merely new models. We did not create a new faction to match Sigmarines, did we?

    Eldan wrote:

    I mean, there's four candidates more or less for Imperial supplements. Tsuandan, Volskaja, Khogi and Destria. Destria barely has any fluff. If the Empire gets two supplements like everyone else, it pretty much has to be at least one of them. Who else is there?
    This is a clever observation, but IC is a possibility as parent LAB, and two Supplements is not a rule carved in stone.
    One could well imagine Destria to be included within the IC LAB, and Volskaya to be an IC supplement.
    Also, one could imagine that EoS gets half a dozen supplements, if those are as simple as Terracotta and Barrow Legions, taking litterally only half a page.

    jirga wrote:

    Availability of models would be my argument for [X] faction.
    I am 100% sure that T9A will not design a faction or a supplement if adequate models are not already available for most of the units to consider.

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  • Hombre de Mundo wrote:

    The most likely of the popular picks for me are Volkskaya as an EoS supplement, @Giladis be damned
    If we had to pick an AB for a Volskaya supplement KoE would be better as they are closer in chronological inspiration. :P



    edit: @Hombre de Mundo how come you are so interested in medieval south Slavic faction with a sprinkling of Turkic and Iranian influences?

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  • I would love to see a snakemen or feline kin factions.

    Definitely I would avoid another human faction but the Iron Crowns. For obvious reasons :D.
  • Just to clarify my initial comment was based on the fact that the T9A world has an equivalent to Cathay and Kislev already, and I was just curious about the idea of adding those sort of cultures into the game. I figure a lot of people would be interested in an Asian influenced fantasy army with samurai and the like.
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  • Giladis wrote:

    edit: @Hombre de Mundo how come you are so interested in medieval south Slavic faction with a sprinkling of Turkic and Iranian influences?
    I mean, eastern Europeans are known to be kind of crazy, like the rednecks of Europe. In Fantasy, they'd be like an Orc mindset in a human body. I find that to be quite enticing for a supplement, esp from a rules perspective. But there's also plenty of people who enjoy the sort of Kislev-ish aesthetic and there's lots of model choices. Would be a good pick!
  • I am going to pull out my Gumshoes trench coat for this post, as I would like to both speculate and give some thoughts on what I think would be the right area to go in with these last two books, based on what the game already has.

    So to start of, let's look at what real-world faction each book is roughly based on. This might seem like it should have nothing to do with picking a faction, BUT it actually has a bit more going on under the hood. Armies across the world have fought in different ways, and the 9th armybooks borrow somewhat from a real world faction. Thus choosing a race from a part of the world that 9th has not gone to yet will have a higher chance of yielding a new or less-utilised playstyle. Which is important, given the number of books compared to the relatively limited number of unit types (infantry, archers, cavalry, cavalry archers, war-machines, monsters etc etc). So without further ado, let's look at what we have already.

    BH = Germanic Tribes/Celts
    DL = N/A
    DE = Greece
    DH = Norse/Celts
    EoS = Renaissance Europe
    HBE = ???
    ID = Assyria
    KoE = Franks
    OK = Mongols
    O&G = ???
    SA = Aztecs/Khmer
    SE = ???
    UD = Egypt
    VC = Wallachia
    VS = Romans/Byzantines
    WoDG = ???

    Ok so quite a few unknowns and one not applicable, but there is overall a general theme here of what large areas are missing. (List subject to change if someone can enlighten me what the ones I am unsure about are)

    Totally missing:
    East Asia
    Sub-Saharan Africa
    South Asia
    North America
    South America

    Small representation:
    South-East Asia
    Central America
    Eastern Europe
    Central Asia
    Scandinavia

    Plentiful representation:
    Mediterranean
    Central Europe
    Western Europe
    Middle-East


    So going by this list, I would personally focus on the first list of totally unrepresented areas.

    My personal pick for the top of such list would be the Indian sub-continent. The combination of near impenetrable mountains to the North and jungles to the East made invading with a large army difficult, allowing the area to develop a unique culture and military. These would be fantastic inspirations, and would help to justify an inclusion as an additional army book.

    Second pick would go to Japan, for similar reasons; isolation creating a very different culture and military style.

    That's not to say that other areas are lacking in such categories, just that these two feel like the most different from other armies already available.

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  • CThe most likely of the popular picks for me are Volkskaya as an EoS supplement, @Giladis be damned

    Giladis wrote:

    If we had to pick an AB for a Volskaya supplement KoE would be better as they are closer in chronological inspiration. :P


    edit: @Hombre de Mundo how come you are so interested in medieval south Slavic faction with a sprinkling of Turkic and Iranian influences?
    Chronological??? So no gunpowder then right? :gbully:

    So… early Russian principalities… 13th and 14th centuries? 8o
  • Very cliché, but:
    North America: O&G feral Orcs and Forest Goblins
    South America: SA

    Totally missing:
    South-East Asia
    Central Asia
    Sub-Saharan Africa

    HBE = Golden Age Europe (1600-1700 sea faring but with old tech)
    O&G = Neaderthals
    SE = Celtic lore of elves and faeries with a heavy dose of Shakespeare
    WoDG = Norse

    Actually going by legacy anything outside Europe is a bit of a mess.Especially going back in legacy (SA ;) ). I think the forum has a nice dedicated section for Taphria that will serve to explore the continent in full to give a wide and good basis for a choice.
    Similar with South East Asia although the more obvious choice is supplements for EoS and KoE. I would not underestimate the potential force of such supplements in the long run. We should stimulate such development in homebrew and give it a clear long way up.

    South-East Asia is all the rage because it's an emerging market many seek to exploit for money, but let's be honest, most of us do not understand it. Nor are we required to. The Taphria homebrew section is a great example of an open evolution of wargaming with respect and positive representation. Personally I enjoy the much slower ingestion and confrontation with the rich lore and culture from our real world influences.

    In short Taphria fascinates me because it's actually new and done in a way I have not seen before. If we go Asia broadly speaking, then I think we need a similar route for it first. It needs to grow from within our community and stop scratching the surface.

    Total War will do Ind and Arabia next if they go this route (after chaos dwarves and Ogre Kingdoms), only thing left after that is Hobgoblins/mongols. But Arabia and Ind both have existing lore and visuals one of them a huge potential market. After all of that there remains one spot that is not sexy enough yet.
  • Little Joe wrote:


    Total War will do Ind and Arabia next if they go this route (after chaos dwarves and Ogre Kingdoms), only thing left after that is Hobgoblins/mongols.

    No there still the Snakemen/Naga of Kuresh that could still be adding.

    Not only people want them, it's also justify, because despite their non existant lore, they were still mentionned since second edition, they even have a couple of miniature (with no rules) and I think they are even present in Blood Bowl.

    And honnestly I hope, that would be a good use of actual South-Asian mythos to represent this culture, and this will a nice change of taste for the upcoming massive human factions over representation that what is going to be Total War Warhammer 3.
  • Personally I would steer clear of any further historical representation and develop something completely fresh or look towards the sci-fi genre for inspiration. It's ok to pull a few ideas from various races but nothing is more boring than obvious influence from a single primary culture. It's why there was heavy backlash against the VS and DE (pre-re naming) fluff and no complaints at all for the theme of WODG, DL, ID. If people wanted to play a historical game they would play one.
  • Tyranno wrote:

    I am going to pull out my Gumshoes trench coat for this post, as I would like to both speculate and give some thoughts on what I think would be the right area to go in with these last two books, based on what the game already has.

    So to start of, let's look at what real-world faction each book is roughly based on. This might seem like it should have nothing to do with picking a faction, BUT it actually has a bit more going on under the hood. Armies across the world have fought in different ways, and the 9th armybooks borrow somewhat from a real world faction. Thus choosing a race from a part of the world that 9th has not gone to yet will have a higher chance of yielding a new or less-utilised playstyle. Which is important, given the number of books compared to the relatively limited number of unit types (infantry, archers, cavalry, cavalry archers, war-machines, monsters etc etc). So without further ado, let's look at what we have already.

    BH = Germanic Tribes/Celts
    DL = N/A
    DE = Greece
    DH = Norse/Celts
    EoS = Renaissance Europe
    HBE = ???
    ID = Assyria
    KoE = Franks
    OK = Mongols
    O&G = ???
    SA = Aztecs/Khmer
    SE = ???
    UD = Egypt
    VC = Wallachia
    VS = Romans/Byzantines
    WoDG = ???

    Ok so quite a few unknowns and one not applicable, but there is overall a general theme here of what large areas are missing. (List subject to change if someone can enlighten me what the ones I am unsure about are)

    Totally missing:
    East Asia
    Sub-Saharan Africa
    South Asia
    North America
    South America

    Small representation:
    South-East Asia
    Central America
    Eastern Europe
    Central Asia
    Scandinavia

    Plentiful representation:
    Mediterranean
    Central Europe
    Western Europe
    Middle-East


    So going by this list, I would personally focus on the first list of totally unrepresented areas.

    My personal pick for the top of such list would be the Indian sub-continent. The combination of near impenetrable mountains to the North and jungles to the East made invading with a large army difficult, allowing the area to develop a unique culture and military. These would be fantastic inspirations, and would help to justify an inclusion as an additional army book.

    Second pick would go to Japan, for similar reasons; isolation creating a very different culture and military style.

    That's not to say that other areas are lacking in such categories, just that these two feel like the most different from other armies already available.

    If we consult the world map (which has faction icons in various places):

    - SA have icons in Nsisiboko (Taphria) and Aotarakoa (somewhere in the Pacific)
    - DH have an icon in Kegiz Gavem (Taphria)

    I'm also confused by "Scandinavia has no representation; what else is Askland?

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  • Marcos24 wrote:

    CThe most likely of the popular picks for me are Volkskaya as an EoS supplement, @Giladis be damned

    Giladis wrote:

    If we had to pick an AB for a Volskaya supplement KoE would be better as they are closer in chronological inspiration. :P

    edit: @Hombre de Mundo how come you are so interested in medieval south Slavic faction with a sprinkling of Turkic and Iranian influences?
    Chronological??? So no gunpowder then right? :gbully:
    So… early Russian principalities… 13th and 14th centuries? 8o
    More like 11th to 13th century Balkan polities.

    People mostly do not know Bulgarians and Serbs had Tzars long before Russians, Croats and Bulgairans have a long tradition of expert horsemanship or that Docleans were skilled skirmishers and mountaineers.

    When designing Volskaya geograpgically it was intentionally developed to give a natural gradation from renaissance EoS, through more rural but comparable Zagvozd into Zmayevatz dipping into earlier period development in central, southern and eastern Volskaya with the distinct expemtion of the capitol in the being a tech "island".


    @Tyranno you are not far off. I'll reply later today with a general list of faction inspiration showing far more of the world is already "covered" by the existing factions that might seem at first glance.

    Though I will agree the setting is centred on Eastern Med and becomes less defined as we spread from it matching real world history.

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  • Just completing (to the best of my... limited! knowledge) the army inspiration

    Tyranno wrote:

    I am going to pull out my Gumshoes trench coat for this post, as I would like to both speculate and give some thoughts on what I think would be the right area to go in with these last two books, based on what the game already has.

    So to start of, let's look at what real-world faction each book is roughly based on. This might seem like it should have nothing to do with picking a faction, BUT it actually has a bit more going on under the hood. Armies across the world have fought in different ways, and the 9th armybooks borrow somewhat from a real world faction. Thus choosing a race from a part of the world that 9th has not gone to yet will have a higher chance of yielding a new or less-utilised playstyle. Which is important, given the number of books compared to the relatively limited number of unit types (infantry, archers, cavalry, cavalry archers, war-machines, monsters etc etc). So without further ado, let's look at what we have already.

    BH = Germanic Tribes/Celts
    DL = N/A
    DE = Greece
    DH = Norse/Celts
    EoS = Renaissance Europe
    HBE = ??? Colonial Europe (Brits?) with commercial companies a bit everywhere
    ID = Assyria
    KoE = Franks
    OK = Mongols
    O&G = ???
    SA = Aztecs/Khmer
    SE = ??? Celts, picts, etc?
    UD = Egypt
    VC = Wallachia
    VS = Romans/Byzantines
    WoDG = ???
    MA = Huns (?)
    AS = Viking
    CU = ???
    HB = ??? (central asia?)


    Ok so quite a few unknowns and one not applicable, but there is overall a general theme here of what large areas are missing. (List subject to change if someone can enlighten me what the ones I am unsure about are)

    Totally missing:
    East Asia
    Sub-Saharan Africa
    South Asia
    North America
    South America

    Small representation:
    South-East Asia
    Central America
    Eastern Europe
    Central Asia
    Scandinavia

    Plentiful representation:
    Mediterranean
    Central Europe
    Western Europe
    Middle-East


    So going by this list, I would personally focus on the first list of totally unrepresented areas.

    My personal pick for the top of such list would be the Indian sub-continent. The combination of near impenetrable mountains to the North and jungles to the East made invading with a large army difficult, allowing the area to develop a unique culture and military. These would be fantastic inspirations, and would help to justify an inclusion as an additional army book.

    Second pick would go to Japan, for similar reasons; isolation creating a very different culture and military style.

    That's not to say that other areas are lacking in such categories, just that these two feel like the most different from other armies already available.

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  • Wesser wrote:

    We have a lot of factions already. Will the game really be better having more causing each individual Army to be played less and less?

    When going to a restaurant a menu card with too many dishes on it is a bad sign as its usually means frozen food or lower. The more factions the lower the quality seems an inevitable outcome
    I Must say this is something that worries me a bit. 16 factions with 2 supplements each is already no less than 48 armies, hardly sustainable - while right now some of the main armies are already a rare sight.

    @Mad Hat hosted a painting desk discussion some time ago (unfortunately I cannot find the link to the YouTube video!), specifically on brainstorming for new factions - very interesting and on point with the discussion at hand!

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  • Idum wrote:

    I Must say this is something that worries me a bit. 16 factions with 2 supplements each is already no less than 48 armies, hardly sustainable - while right now some of the main armies are already a rare sight.
    @Mad Hat hosted a painting desk discussion some time ago (unfortunately I cannot find the link to the YouTube video!), specifically on brainstorming for new factions - very interesting and on point with the discussion at hand!
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    Going to 48 armies sounds pretty wicked to me, but I can understand the hesitancy. Maybe it could be solved by TOs agreeing to a seasonal schedule? Each year, 8 sub-factions selected from a revolving list are allowed, in addition to any Sub-factions released that year. Something like that, just to help limit the total number of armies in immediate circulation. You can of course play any Sub-faction you want with your friends, and there could be tournament who run other sets of Sub-factions too.

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