Holy Triumvirate Brainstorming

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  • Holy Triumvirate Brainstorming

    So there's been a lot of discussion on the general thread about this topic, enough that I thought it would benefit from its own thread.

    Instead of discussing the price of our Wizards or of Holy Triumvirate, I was hoping to discuss the specific effect it has on our Wizards.

    A few thoughts I had were
    1. Not limiting HT to wizards and include it as a mark/favor that normal R&F units can take. A wizard deployed in such a unit would gain magical bonuses of some kind.
    2. Make access to 5-6 spells something only 1 wizard gains because of HT. Maybe make a single wizard able to access spells from EVERY Path known to other wizards in the HT. This way we have 1 flexible wizard and 2 other normal Wizards
    3. Make HT scale better like Xaby86 said in the other thread. Basically 2 wizards gain a small effect, 3 Wizards gain more (and maybe 4+ wizards gain more)
    4. Better merging of magic and science as outlined in our guidelines. They say that the new Crown of Hubris rules meet this, but there is nothing "scientific" about sacrificing your own models to gain Veil Tokens, even if you can use those Veil Tokens to power up a Cannon. Thinking of the legacy Warp Energy Condenser, what if we had a Channel (D6) ability/item that blew up if too much energy was stored or if a Mishap happened? Almost like a Miscast, the more Veil Tokens in the ability/item the higher strength damage it does.
    5. Another science/magic blend would be experiments in demonology. Maybe VS wizards perform a ritual that grants them semi-demonhood effects (maybe they trap a demon in a canister and use a projector to gain a Aegis 5++), but by sacrificing part or all of their aegis save they can power up their magic or technology. This would give them more protection to stand up front sometimes, but increase their risk if they want to power up other things.
    6. Maybe similar to Patrick Rothfuss' Name of the Wind novel, they learn how to convert kinetic energy into magical power and can build a suit/ability that has good armour and gains +1 channel every time an attack of X Strength or higher hits it.
    7. Lightning armour utilizing electromagnetic fields and powered by Veil Tokens.
    There are so many ideas for Magic/Science we could implement and a lot of different ways to write Holy Triumvirate so that it gives our 3 Wizards the power of a Master Wizard. When I thought Dark Shards were still going to be in LAB I thought they'd be able to just eat one for +1 to Cast, but obviously now we have to generate other ideas.

    What are your ideas? What have you seen in fantasy literature? Let's improve this rule!
  • Thank you for mentioning my idea. Feel free to look it up and paste it here for a better understanding of the idea. Maybe I will do it if I have the time.

    I think it's a bad idea to make climbing bring something to a fourth wizard. I think 3 is a good number. If you want to play other wizards it would be wise to try to make a triumvirate of another path. For example, you could play 6 priests, which would be considered 2 Masters.
  • xaby86 wrote:

    While we're at it, I'll throw out an alternative idea for the priests, lest it get stuck in my head and keep me awake at night. These things need to be released.

    Priests are always Apprentice, with the option of Adept.

    They can buy the following rule.

    "Ritual of the triumvirate:
    - As long as there are two models on the table with this rule, who have the same path, both count as Adept and know spells 1-4 of the chosen path.
    - As long as there are three models with this rule on the table, who have the same path, they all count as Master and know spells 1-6 of the chosen path."

    Basically, if you have 1 priest they will be Apprentice, if you have two they will be Adept, and if you have three they will all be Master, but as they die they will lose qualities, so if you bought three priests, who together are Master, and one dies, suddenly you are left with two Adepts, so you lose 5-6 and +1. If you then lose another, you are left with a simple Apprentice, so you lose 2 Channel and 2-4. This prevents kamikaze mages.
  • analysis of existing combos that might help peoples ideas...

    Apprentice - 1 spell (1/h) - 115pts

    2 Apprentice - 2 spells (1/h) - 230pts

    3 apprentices - 3 spells (1/h) - 345 pts

    3 Apprentices Triumvirate - 3 spells (1-4/h) - 420pts

    Apprentice & Adept - 1 spell (1/h), 2 spells (1-4/h) & channel 1 - 305pts

    2 Apprentice & Adept - 2 spells (1/h), 2 spells (1-4/h) & channel 1 - 420pts

    2 Apprentices & Adapt Triumvirate - 2 spells (1-4/h), 2 spells (1-6/h) & 1 channel - 495pts

    Apprentice & 2 adepts - 1 spell (1/h), 4 spells (1-4/h) & channel 2 - 495pts

    Apprentice & 2 Adepts Triumvirate - 1 spell (1-4/h), 4 spells (1-6/h) & channel 2 - 570pts

    2 Adepts - 4 spells (1-4/h) & 2 channel - 380pts

    3 Adepts - 6 spells (1-4/h) & 3 channel - 570pts

    3 Adepts Triumvirate - 6 spells (1-6/h) & 3 channel - 645pts

    So our existing special abilities are these

    3 Apprentices for 450pts
    2 Apprentices and Adept 495pts
    Apprentice and 2 Adepts 570pts
    3 Adepts 645pts

    The only thing this gives us is access to higher level spells. Not more spells or any more abilities that a master would receive.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Twisted Magpie ().

  • So, I think that I'd like to see us have access to a master equivalent level.

    I personally don't see the extra variety of spells to be worth the extra bodies, because protecting those bodies becomes a chore. I'd be happy only having to protect 1, he can go in the same bunker as the general. However recent chat seems to be asking for less need of a bunker and if that happens there must be more value in having three models or not needing three models and gaining more benefit from only 2.
    I don't see the point of the community campaigning for a general (looking at the senator here) not needing a bunker to just need one anyway for your extra Wizards.

    Admittedly if you only have 2 Wizards and one is on the bell this only leaves one to protect.
    But there will still generally be 1 or 2 that need something extra
  • Some suggestions...

    1) firstly remove the cult specification from triumvirate.

    2) in fact scrap triumvirate and have some ability that scales with extra Wizards
    (Even if that goes to 4 or even 5 because let's face it if you have that many Wizards, you need to protect them all and spend all those points to get it and not have those points elsewhere)


    All Wizards are apprentices and chose spells as normal from 1 and H spells, channel 1

    For 2 Wizards in the army list each one becomes an adept Wizard that choses 2 from spells 1-4 & hereditary, +1 cast spells 3/4 only)

    For 3 Wizards in the army list each one becomes an Accomplished wizard that choses 3 spells from 1-6 & hereditary and gets +1 to cast when casting spells 5/6 only.

    You only pay 1 cost for every Wizard (at apprentice level). Then an additional cost gets added for each extra Wizard (to all Wizards), I.e ** pts each for each additional Wizard

    In this suggestion apprentices are a little more powerful than normal by bringing a channel (but who ever uses just a single apprentice), Adepts get a little more with the bonus to cast 3/4 spells but if course you have to take 2 Wizards to achieve this.
    3 Wizards become Accomplished which isn't quite as strong as another factions master because they only get 3 spells and the +1 cast is restricted.

    I think this fits in the design that our casters are not as powerful as other factions but with numbers become more versatile. As each Wizard becomes more powerful the more you add to the army it would be much easier to price sensibly.
  • Twisted Magpie wrote:

    I'd be happy only having to protect 1, he can go in the same bunker as the general. However recent chat seems to be asking for less need of a bunker and if that happens there must be more value in having three models or not needing three models and gaining more benefit from only 2.
    What about something like

    Holy Brotherhood: If there are at least 2 models with Holy Brotherhood on your Army List, select one of them to be the Patriarch. The Patriarch knows an additional Spell and can select from Learned Spells 1-6 of their chosen Path. Additionally, the Patriarch can also cast any Learned Spells known to other models in their Army with Holy Brotherhood. If other models with Holy Brotherhood are removed as casualties, the additional Spells known by the Patriarch are also lost.

    Other models with Holy Brotherhood within 24" of the Patriarch can cast spells known by the Patriarch as long as they would normally be allowed by their Wizard Level (ie Learned Spell 1 for Apprentices and Learned Spells 1-4 for Adepts)