Google Trend of 9th Age:

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  • So if i understand correctly you will just do absolutely nothing as management to turn this trend.

    And i dont get the "no resources". A managements "job" is to a) gather b) utilize
    resources to promote the "company's" milestones.
    I mean we do have a decent structure and all i am allowed to use these "metaphors".

    Maybe if you guys don't have time and cannot get resources, its time for a management update? Who knows maybe some people do have time and resources to achieve more.

    Also, regarding the "vibrant local scene" as the graph clearly depicts, some did have it, but rules update after after update, base change after base change, list invalidation after list invalidation, ban after ban, well, some lost it.

    And the project "behaving" exactly the same means we ain't gonna get it back.

    To sum it up you just say "i don't care all that much" :) (by the way last phrase is checked by my lawyer it cannot be declared "toxic" nore offensive in any legal system in the planet)
    let us all help moderators get girlfriends!

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Flames ().

  • And to sum it up. When GW killed WH and AOS emerged many of us had a choice. Rebase, or believe in the project. We opted for the second, continued the "investment", bought, converted, 3d printed, painted, played, provided feedback. Sigh, what a disappointment, Some of us have 10 armies but cant get a game. Me and 2 of my mates are switching to "boring" 40k just because of this.

    Honestly, if i knew then how it would evolve, i would have round based without a doubt.
    I am dead sure many of us agree.


    7 years after, you guys still don't get it. It is a hobby, not a physics contest :)
    let us all help moderators get girlfriends!

  • @Flames

    *shrug*
    I am just giving you my take on how I believe the world to be.
    I don't believe "we don't care" is a fair take on what I said, I was just trying to clarify what t9a is and isn't.
    (And for clarity, I also wasn't speaking on behalf of management or the project, just giving you my view, as someone who you know IRL (and I hope respect).).

    The nature of what the project is means that it is on the community to build their local scenes, and basically cannot be otherwise.
    The only way the project could have the resources to build everyone's local scenes is if the people local to each area volunteered to build their local scenes... so no need to wait for the project, is it quicker and easier for you all to just cut out the middleman and build your local scenes.


    Regardless, I think your last post is probably very honest.
    You are unhappy with how the project has evolved.
    That is of course sad, and I am sorry you feel that way. And I wish you didn't feel that way.

    I can only assure you that in my experience, at all turns, the project tries to both be consistent with the principles/wishes/vision of the founders, and pay attention to the vast array of (conflicting) feedback we get from the community.

    Could other decisions have been made? Undoubtedly.
    Might those decisions have helped some local scenes? Probably.
    Might those different decisions have jeopardised/harmed other local scenes? Almost certainly.
    I think many people simply don't realise how heterogeneous the legacy community was, or the level of conflicting feedback that we get... I had an inkling of this because of my experience travelling and mixing with some very different kinds of gamers, and I was flabbergasted to see how varied the feedback can be, on things that I thought *surely everyone* would agree on.


    Sadly, we simply can't be everything to everyone.
    There are many different games, that suit many different tastes.
    And people will always differ on how they believe a given game should be organised and directed, whether that is the frequency/size/nature of updates, or something else.

    I personally think t9a has been clear about where it wants to sit in that landscape of games, and is doing its best to be a good version of that point in the landscape.
    Do I personally agree with every decision, or think every decision is ideal for what I personally want from the game and/or my local scene?
    Of course not, that is sadly an unrealistic expectation.
    But I do personally find it the best game available for my tastes, so I play it rather than other games.
    *shrug*

    I hope that helps at least a little.
    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
    Empire of Dannstahl HERE
    Adjustments to 2.0 HERE

  • wrapping things up.

    You sound like you are eternal. Like god has appointed you somewhere and you are rooted to the spot.

    My friend, 6 years data for any endeavor are enough.
    6 years of decline and still no change?

    You guys are doing some things wrong. Face it.

    Even your likes are 2-3 people, i mean they'd hit like in probably anything :) I can get @strong willed@ managemt with good salary, but @strong willed@ management without compensation, i honestly dont get :)
    let us all help moderators get girlfriends!

  • Nesro wrote:

    Davian wrote:

    Alas I am in Sweden and it is too expensive to travel to serbia. In addition I am at a festival as well, for true heavy metal :) it is hard to travel outside scandinavia and denmark for gaming. it becomes too expensive :/
    take a car, put 120L of cheep beer in it on the way back, sell it in sweden and - after all expenses - you will have some money to buy new models
    For people outside of Sweden which thinks this is a joke, I tell you it is not. This is an absolute true statement. :)

  • Flames wrote:

    So if i understand correctly you will just do absolutely nothing as management to turn this trend.

    And i dont get the "no resources". A managements "job" is to a) gather b) utilize
    resources to promote the "company's" milestones.
    I mean we do have a decent structure and all i am allowed to use these "metaphors".

    Maybe if you guys don't have time and cannot get resources, its time for a management update? Who knows maybe some people do have time and resources to achieve more.

    Also, regarding the "vibrant local scene" as the graph clearly depicts, some did have it, but rules update after after update, base change after base change, list invalidation after list invalidation, ban after ban, well, some lost it.

    And the project "behaving" exactly the same means we ain't gonna get it back.

    To sum it up you just say "i don't care all that much" :) (by the way last phrase is checked by my lawyer it cannot be declared "toxic" nore offensive in any legal system in the planet)

    The Ninth Age project has not been static in the time frame considered by the graph. Not in what it's been doing, not in who has been in charge of doing any given part of it.

    But people generally can't tell when there's been a change in management, unless it's publicized, because one person doesn't make all that much difference; the change is the change of the Ship of Theseus, so slow and gradual that it never seems to change at all.

    Nonetheless, tracked over time, policies have changed.



    Assuming there is a problem (I don't have the expertise to judge your presented data either way), the problem is not thus that management never changes, but (if the problem relates to management changing) that it has not changed in the right direction. Which means that "just make changes" isn't justified; you need some reason to believe they are the right changes.



    From the perspective of growth, I'd say the one thing that could be done with substantial increases in resource investment would be professional market research, hiring actual professionals to find out what it would take to grow this hobby.


    But the risk there is that the answer would be... well, perhaps like the answer it seems GW got: consolidate the game line, radically redesign the game to appeal to this growth demographic, etc.

    For a for-profit company, that's an acceptable answer: you move to where the money is. For a not-for-profit project that exists to promote a specific kind of game, it's not.

    And research isn't free. Money and effort spent in such a direction isn't being spent in any other.


    And the competing option would be to try to set up some kind of structured event provider, mutually supporting and making it easier to run events of all sizes. Which... it could be good if someone tried that, and this is where the fundamentals of volunteer work come in: with no ability to hire people to do things, someone needs to volunteer.

    And everyone is happy to volunteer to give orders. Fewer people are willing to volunteer to take them.

    Background Team

  • I think we should have a new section on the forum: "catastrophic threads"

    It'd be nice to have one convenient place to get all the relevant news...

  • Flames wrote:

    Well facts,
    According to this we are indeed falling and steadily :

    I honestly dont know when someone will actually do something besides isolating all that criticize.
    Lol, getting told “you’re wrong” isn’t getting isolated. You just don’t like people disagreeing with you. People also get tired of the same old arguments.

    That chart doesn’t look particularly damming to me, it’s looks stable with a slight decline over time. There’s only so big a community can get, that says to me most of the people predisposed to playing tabletop fantasy wargames have given us a look. We are not going to attract legions of new players all the time. The best any of us can do is try and spread the game locally. Plus, why should we care anyway? We are not a for profit company, we dont really care about “market share” amd all that stuff.
    Mental Health First Aider

    "Remember what punishments befell us in this world when we did not cherish learning, nor transmit it to others" - Alfred the Great C890's AD/CE

  • again, i provide chart you provide personal insults.

    "Lol" is irony
    "You just don’t like people disagreeing with you" is your opinion on me which doesnt contribute at all.

    Someone will make a harsher comment, i will reply on the same tone, i will get banned. Thats how it works around here.

    Regarding the trend, no comment. Lets just say that i wouldn't hire you on my stats team :)
    let us all help moderators get girlfriends!

  • Finally.

    1st. Poll tools that directly "measure" players opinions in every aspect of the hobby, before, during and after each hobby related "decision". Be it a book, lore, or update, whatever.
    2nd. Fund raising so that we hire a marketing expert. I can personally contribute for no fee of course (i have 2 IT companies and i can throw some good cash -personal none corporate i mean- :)). But we need a "global stratagem" not a one man show on this, so pls no "go on whats stopping you"
    3d. Stop IIMINENTLY all stuff members from answering on forum on aspects that dont fall under their jurisdiction. Let them start behaving like actual staff. The "no payment" does not give ANYONE the right to attack a "customer". Its totally toxic and does tons of damage. It makes the project appear something closed and introverted which in any sales course will tell you is the recipe for bankruptcy.
    4th. Create clear processes on hiring and personnel assesment. Tests or procedures or something. No one should be in a "job" forever.

    5th which i forgot. In every book team add a hobby consultant. I will explain this in a while :)

    If we do above we will soon see impressive results i am pretty sure.

    PS. And i dont care if i am in in any of the project. I just want a bigger community so that i pass my 25 years of miniatures to my son and he actually plays 9th age. The game is pure gold. It will be a pity if it doesnt turn the linux of wargaming :)
    let us all help moderators get girlfriends!

    The post was edited 3 times, last by Flames ().

  • (again to be clear, I am giving my own view/take based on what I have seen/experienced internally, not formally speaking on behalf of the project)

    Flames wrote:

    ...
    6 years of decline and still no change?

    You guys are doing some things wrong. Face it.
    ...
    We have changed many things over this period.

    I think we are still talking past each other somewhat though.

    You seem to think I am saying we are not interested in the data or don't care about it.
    None of this is the case.
    I am just telling you what the practical limits are on our resources given our nature as a purely volunteer run not for profit organisation.

    We don't (and cannot***) have the resources to do the sort of comprehensive market research and data gathering exercise you are talking about, without getting a lot of volunteers from the community to basically self-organise and do it.
    Please, if you feel you have these skills, organise it and make it happen.
    We would be delighted to see this :)

    We will study the results with great interest and determine if indeed some central decisions (and which ones) have contributed to a possible decline, and whether any of those can factors can be adjusted/reversed without risking harm to the places where t9a is stable or growing.
    Maybe such an exercise will even bear out your beliefs, and we will adjust things accordingly... or maybe it won't. One of the key problems is that everyone tells us we need to change things in different ways, and they all claim to have evidence for why the changes they tell us to make are the right ones, and such a data gathering exercise might hopefully make things clearer. (Or not, if the gaming culture/market is as heterogeneous as I suspect it is and therefore central management decisions about the direction of the game do not act as the dominant factors).

    Hope that helps
    Dan


    *** At least we are aware of no way to meaningfully expand our resources that doesn't cause issues in terms of the founders' vision/principles. And contravening those is not a right that management has.




    Edit: ah, we crossed over, apologies.
    Some brief responses to some of your suggestions:
    (1) We'd love to do this. We need people to volunteer to do it.
    (2) Isn't really possible. Management have discussed some related issues, and it is difficult to find a way forward that is compatible with the t9a vision/ethos etc. Since I (and you) didn't found t9a this isn't our call (but feel free to start your own game organisation if you want one founded with different principles).
    (3) Management is slowly setting stronger bounds on staff behaviour, but people are volunteering in their spare time, they don't want to be banned from taking part in forum discussions just because they have volunteered to do some things for the project.
    (4) Is complicated, but no-one has a job for life except the founders etc. Even the EXB can be sacked. Most teams have a pretty substantial turnover.

    As I noted in earlier responses, I think you are in danger of making some category errors, in what you think t9a is and should be. There are aspect of its nature that are fundamental to what it is.
    List repository and links HERE
    Basic beginners tactics HERE
    Empire of Dannstahl HERE
    Adjustments to 2.0 HERE

  • Stop dropping how many IT businesses you “own” into conversation, it’s weird and irrelevant to the discussion.

    The project is never going to hire someone using money, donated or not.

    Look, because this is not a money making enterprise, the project team don’t have to be nice to you. You’re essentially telling a bunch of dedicated volunteer game designers who do this as a passion, that what have created is a failure. Repetitively.

  • @Flames: i like getting info from data. I'm not very well known with google trends. I do think it is interesting datasource. I will try to connect Tableau to Google trends to see if i can use it as stable datasource and to vizualize it outcomes. On top of that, id like to retrieve forum info as well. Combined with number of tourneys played it gives some good info to us as a community.
    Co-creator of 9th Age Data Analysis dashboard. Report your games here to make them count in it.

  • Sander wrote:

    @Flames: i like getting info from data. I'm not very well known with google trends. I do think it is interesting datasource. I will try to connect Tableau to Google trends to see if i can use it as stable datasource and to vizualize it outcomes. On top of that, id like to retrieve forum info as well. Combined with number of tourneys played it gives some good info to us as a community.
    yes, i was working with Google, their algos are beyond trust me. If the trend was a bit more complex it would be safe to say it is BS. But it does show a clear and present trend. I will PM you for further hook up and maybe a game or two!
    let us all help moderators get girlfriends!

  • DanT wrote:

    (again to be clear, I am giving my own view/take based on what I have seen/experienced internally, not formally speaking on behalf of the project)

    Flames wrote:

    ...
    6 years of decline and still no change?

    You guys are doing some things wrong. Face it.
    ...
    We have changed many things over this period.
    I think we are still talking past each other somewhat though.

    You seem to think I am saying we are not interested in the data or don't care about it.
    None of this is the case.
    I am just telling you what the practical limits are on our resources given our nature as a purely volunteer run not for profit organisation.

    We don't (and cannot***) have the resources to do the sort of comprehensive market research and data gathering exercise you are talking about, without getting a lot of volunteers from the community to basically self-organise and do it.
    Please, if you feel you have these skills, organise it and make it happen.
    We would be delighted to see this :)

    We will study the results with great interest and determine if indeed some central decisions (and which ones) have contributed to a possible decline, and whether any of those can factors can be adjusted/reversed without risking harm to the places where t9a is stable or growing.
    Maybe such an exercise will even bear out your beliefs, and we will adjust things accordingly... or maybe it won't. One of the key problems is that everyone tells us we need to change things in different ways, and they all claim to have evidence for why the changes they tell us to make are the right ones, and such a data gathering exercise might hopefully make things clearer. (Or not, if the gaming culture/market is as heterogeneous as I suspect it is and therefore central management decisions about the direction of the game do not act as the dominant factors).

    Hope that helps
    Dan


    *** At least we are aware of no way to meaningfully expand our resources that doesn't cause issues in terms of the founders' vision/principles. And contravening those is not a right that management has.




    Edit: ah, we crossed over, apologies.
    Some brief responses to some of your suggestions:
    (1) We'd love to do this. We need people to volunteer to do it.
    (2) Isn't really possible. Management have discussed some related issues, and it is difficult to find a way forward that is compatible with the t9a vision/ethos etc. Since I (and you) didn't found t9a this isn't our call (but feel free to start your own game organisation if you want one founded with different principles).
    (3) Management is slowly setting stronger bounds on staff behaviour, but people are volunteering in their spare time, they don't want to be banned from taking part in forum discussions just because they have volunteered to do some things for the project.
    (4) Is complicated, but no-one has a job for life except the founders etc. Even the EXB can be sacked. Most teams have a pretty substantial turnover.

    As I noted in earlier responses, I think you are in danger of making some category errors, in what you think t9a is and should be. There are aspect of its nature that are fundamental to what it is.

    About 1, well i do remember Giladis saying so but result??? About rest, thanks for taking the time. But sometimes change management (not the people the terminology) should be put to the table? Maybe somekind of "project donation" ?

    Mod Edit: Deleted qoute of deleted post.
    let us all help moderators get girlfriends!

    The post was edited 2 times, last by umbranar: Deleted qoute of deleted post. ().