Pinned Feedback for Balance Patch 2022 -- FOR WDG PLAYERS

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  • Feedback for Balance Patch 2022 -- FOR WDG PLAYERS

    Hello WDG Community!

    This is the first of two threads for collecting feedback from the community for this year’s Balance and Design Patch. We are collecting information about what fixes are needed for the WDG, from both the community of faction-players and the community at large.

    What are we looking for?
    • Which units or items or special rules just “don’t work” and will “never work” no matter how cheap they will become;
    • This can include such things as Hereditary Spells (such as with Hellfire), which likely won’t be helped by a lower casting value;
    • We are not looking for things like Thyroscutus, which after several point drops did see usage.
    Here are the rules:
    • One (1) post per person. That post can be edited;
    • Absolutely no discussion in this thread (any discussion will be deleted); please use the General Discussion thread for any comments;
    • Only problem identification, NOT solution identification;
    • Propose max. 3 issues.
    Please use the following format:

    SuggestionItem or Entry in Question
    Non-point based change
    Rationale:
    Display Spoiler

    A short 1-2 sentence explanation, or bullet points about why you think this entry is a problem.


    Please remember, this is a thread ONLY for people playing the army. Your posts may be curated. There is another thread (found here) for players not playing the army. Only post once in both. Feel invited to also post in other armies threads for nonplayers of that army.

    This thread will stay open until 1st of September and than ACS will distill the suggestions into a list. RT will then take this list to a set number of issues and add redesigns to lower highly complex units/items/special rules.

    WDG Community Support

    Playtester

    GR Team Coordinator

    T9A fan

    The post was edited 3 times, last by Lakonas ().

  • Trophy rack updates on standard bearers due lack of bsb, thus hindering movement and reforms

    hfa rules removed and changed to ‘non stompable’ to improve infantry without buffing others


    Impact hits for karkadans.. the most boring of al mounts out there.. mechanical bull that charges in should impact imo.. even sky heralds have impact hits

    The post was edited 3 times, last by PrinceCharming ().

  • Hellmaw.

    This entry completely bypasses the regular movement rules with its teleport mechanic. This is very frustrating for a lot of players. The active and the reactive ones.

    Because of this game breaking mechanic, this entry can never get cheap in points and so can't be fixed by points.

    Edit:

    Another 2 entries i think will never be balanced by points are burning portent and chosen.

    Burning portent because it is in fact a super strong and effective enchantment, as long as you don't encounter flaming aegis.
    But because it is so devastating on everything else, it will never be dirty cheap and go down below 100 points. But currently it is so expensive, that every alternative is way better.

    I suggest to make the flaming effect optional and one use only. As long as the flaming effect is not active, the weapon does AP (3) instead of AP (10). Price could stay the same. I guarantee this version will be played way more often than now.

    Same goes with chosen. Just to slow for their price. But can't get cheaper, cause once they hit combat in full numbers, they are absolutely devastating by design.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Exalted Champion ().

  • 1.Chosen: Lack of mobility and survivability before being in CC.

    2. Hellmaw: Too complex, annoying for inexperienced opponents, worthless against experienced ones.

    3. Veilgate Orb: Taking artefakt slot. With 150 limits for SI on characters there is place for more expensive items that work better and do more.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Keller ().

  • By order of importance:

    1. Veilgate Orb
    The item has already reached the absolute price minimum a special item can get and isn't played. The fact it occupies an artifact slot is already too steep price for the effect. It has been introduced in the last stage of beta without any chance of change and it's usage and cost dynamics show it should be replaced/removed from the book.

    2. Hellmaw
    Too high complexity, too gimmicky mechanics that introduces unrequired elements to an already complex game.

    3. Icon of the Infinite (edited from Favours)
    While simple in design I feel and the item cost tendency confirms it, the slot could be used better - perhaps to help WDG infantry?

    The post was edited 2 times, last by saint_barbara ().

  • 1)Wasteland dragon
    General only restriction and pricy rider make him too expensive to lose regardless of his price in points, and the model is too fragile and easy to lose

    2)Chosen
    Too few models in a unit to function as infantry, no other role in the army

    3)Barbarian chief
    No role in the army

    Barbarians
    Too fragile to fight in a combat-oriented army

    Hellmaw
    Too complicated rules
    :WDG_bw: :BH: :DL: :ID:

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Kaitin ().

  • If the book already reached the minimum cost forcthe entries still unpopular


    Top 1 :Chosen: too few to costly still susceptible to ranged treats. 2hp is too much for mw target and wrong for their purpose

    Top 2 :Hellmaw: mechanic doesnt fit the army mechanics

    Wasteland dragon: too much niche for elite army

    Ledger + veligate: they dont cover any role in our army after their nerf history

    Top 3 :Burning portent: i believe being built to be iconic, expected to see at least on a CL every three. Hard to see listed. Too much countered.


    Skywheel : too risky no upper sides

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Shukran ().

  • 1. Hellmaw - rules are too complicated and too restrictive. Movement breaking rules will never allow is to become cheap enough

    2. Chosen - too fragile for their cost

    3. TrophyRack - as the only tool increasing reliability of movement phase, it is restricted to very expensive entries (only for heroes and battleshrine), therefore not widespread enough (see how hard I try to avoid proposing solutions? ;) )
  • Selected 3 primary things to bring up for changes on request by @KhaN9292

    Dragon mount
    General only restriction and make him too expensive to lose. Not seeing too much play because of this. Slow flying movement is also an issue.

    Trophy Rack
    Could be add as a similar kind of upgr as Eagle Std. for normal unit standards or give 6" bubble for Trophy Racks and keep entries that get it the same.

    Burning Portent
    Too many counters that all armies have access to. Make attacks at least divine against aegis flaming or make flaming attacks optional.

    Helmaw
    Too complex and doesn't really suit into WDG book imo. Needs complete rework. - dropping this from requests list because I am nor really interested of this kind of shenanigans in WDG book. If you change this back to big mean cannon then I am in.

    Veilgate Orb and Ledger of Souls
    Are not used because they take item slot and are pretty useless. - Could be easily combined with Ledger of souls so there arent much use for this item and therefore I am dropping this from my list of requests.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Kdownunder ().

  • Units to be reworked:

    -Warrior Knights. Too expensive. Standard cavalry gets hit hard by core rules, so they have to be cheap to be viable or have a specific purpose. DE knights hit MUCH harder than Warrior Knights and are cheaper. 1+ armor save does not matter that much for this kind of unit, I'd rather have it as an option but make the unit cheaper and hit harder.


    -Forsworn. Only used as Doomlord bodyguard, totally not viable on their own. Third attack would be the simplest way of making them a real choice. Also rules for damnation should be reworked.

    -Battleshrine. Unexplicably (to me) a popular choice. Paying 300+ points for one spell is crazy. The unit is too slow to play a versatile/support role on the battlefield. Compared to similar units from other books highlights the issues. Making it a chariot and/or adding some automatic buffs for friendly units would help.

    EDITED DOWN TO 3 CHOICES

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Francesco Cacciatore ().

  • Hellmaw:
    boring to inexperienced opponents, low value against experienced ones, promotes an evasive playstyle that doesn't match the army.

    Wasteland Dragon: the model is too fragile, unlike other armies we don't have any magic items to increase its resistance (Starfall Shard, Star Metal Alloy) or magic to restore HP.

    Wasteland Behemoth: Doomlord is more solid on foot, it's damage is too low to justify losing so much defended.

    Chosen: ranged damage causes them to lose too much hit power which is compounded by their low speed, they are unable to break Steadfast.
  • As I already said, I vote for Chosen. I think their hight cost and limited number are in contradiction with what their are supposed to do : fighting.

    There is also a contradiction with the Master of Battle rule : its efficiency is limited by low number of model.

    I make the hypothesis that their cost is mostly due to 2HP. But I'm not so sure of that in the end, cause I don't think it's a real advantage....

    Edit : For the top 3

    1) Chosen
    2) Favors
    3) Hellforged

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Necrosa ().

  • 1. Chimera - Too expensive as cahff, too weak as combat unit.

    2. Battlehrine mount, not worth for apprentice,adept.

    3. FDA - Forbiding flying movement make already rarely picked entries less picked. Dying embers costing one HP without ability to heal is too costly to use. Double weapon enchantment cost make many enchants not useable or ridiculously priced(PB on 260 pts)

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Nasion "Demon" ().

  • 1) Hellmaw

    Aweful design. Not only is the mechanic ridiculous complex, its kind of a noob-stomper. If your enemy knows how to handle it, its basically useless. If he dont, well its game over. This should not be something to be proud of design-wise. On top, it lost any kind of "combat-ness" as an construct, making it an easy target for anything that are not gnoblars.

    2) Chosen

    Too expensiv, too slow, too unreliable for the points. There is not a single reason why anyone should field them. Warriors are core, forsworn are better blocker, and basically anything else "hits" harder because they see a combat they want to. There are 2 possibilities to change that in my opinion.

    3) Feldrak Ancestor

    No flying if he is on the board .... why? Why do we have the only char in the whole game that cripple our other chars if we field him?
  • 1. Burning Portent- this weapon is designed to take on multiwound entries(monsters, heroes, monstrous infantry e.g), however it is lackluster against monsters with str 5 only, most heroes have easy access to 3++/2++ ward save against fire. Compare it with KOE Valour and you will get what I mean. Significantly reduced price or return the explosive hits against infantry.

    2. Chosen- a pinnacle of elite infantry, which while being more expensive is getting murdered by other infantry entries, compounded by inability to break steadfast, deal with monsters, being prone to be shot down and having virtually no combat special rules.

    3. Warrior knights- fielding a 10 knights unit for 600+ pts and then realize that DE and KOE can field cavalry at the same or cheaper price with much better results (DE- immensely higher damage; KOE- much more resilient, orison, unit synergies) is demoralizing.
  • Complexity
    God of Sloth, too unneccesary complex with keeping track of actions in the movement phase

    Priority 3Hellmaw - Oh dear. I had a lot of fun playing around with the hellmaw.

    However, I don't think it's a good piece for the health of the game. You get experience playing it and constantly encounter opponents ready for a fun game not aware of what to expect. And then you are suddenly in full control of the table. Not good.


    Changes
    Priority 1 Hereditary, also incombination with icon of the infinite - currently the low version for 2D3 S6 AP0 hits is not potent enough in my opinion. I never find myself wanting to cast it.

    God of Lust - remove strider bonus. No reason why this should be on there. Also, allows for really gimmicky (non-enjoyable) plays in combination with Hellmaw).

    Burning Portent - change into something else entirely. Tuning your Chosen Lord to be kick ash only to discover the enemy bought a dragonfire gem to nullify your lord makes the item suddenly really situational and makes pricing more complicated than needed.

    Zealot's banner - Problematic as it doesn't bring sufficient revenue for its points either because units quickly become too small to make proper use of it or because the quality of the gained attacks is too low.

    Icon of the infinite - see point about hereditary, a spell that causes 2D3 S6 AP0 hits is not worth bringing (lightning vambraces is plain better currently)


    Feldrak Ancestor - Dying Embers causing a wound is too harsh.

    Scythed Skywheel - Not provinding enough for the Lord.

    Karkadan - give it some love, it's in a tough spot where nobody plays it as it doesn't bring any revenue. Give it something.

    Wasteland dragon - Not general only. Not worth playing as a general only piece.

    Barbarians - Doesn't work currently. Not elite enough considering nearly unarmoured res 3 25mm base profile

    Priority 2Chosen, chosen chariot Has too low discipline to make sense fluff wise as a warrior champion has dis 9.
    Have you checked out my Youtube channel yet? Link: https://www.youtube.com/@Ehakir

    The post was edited 3 times, last by Ehakir ().