Feedback for Balance Patch 2022 -- FOR EoS PLAYERS

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  • Feedback for Balance Patch 2022 -- FOR EoS PLAYERS

    This is the first of two threads for collecting feedback from the community for this year’s Balance and Design Patch. We are collecting information about what fixes are needed for the EoS, from both the community of faction-players and the community at large.



    What are we looking for?
    • Which units or items or special rules just “don’t work” and will “never work” no matter how cheap they will become;
    • This can include such things as Hereditary Spells (such as with BH) which likely won’t be helped by a lower casting value;
    • We are not looking for things like Thyroscutus, which after several point drops did see usage.
    Here are the rules:
    • One (1) post per person. That post can be edited;
    • Absolutely no discussion in this thread (any discussion will be deleted); please use the General Discussion thread for any comments;
    • Only problem identification, NOT solution identification;
    • Propose max. 3 issues.
    Please use the following format:

    • Suggestion: Item or Entry in Question to be Fixed
    • Rationale:A short 1-2 sentence explanation, or bullet points about why you think this entry is a problem.
    Please remember, this is a thread ONLY for people playing the army. Your posts may be curated. There is another thread (found here) for players not playing the army. Only post once in both. Feel invited to also post in other armies threads for nonplayers of that army.


    This thread will stay open until 1st of September and than ACS will distill the suggestions into a list. RT will then take this list to a set number of issues and add redesigns to lower highly complex units/items/special rules

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Lakonas: Added: Propose max. 3 issues and deadline ().

  • EDIT:
    Top three things that need solving, you can disregard the rest of the post:
    1.
    Moving with light infantry is too crippling. Once kitted out to 20 guys you invest 300 PTS into a unit of Res 3 no armour dudes that if they have to move for any reason can't hit the side of a barn anymore.

    2.
    Cannon is too hit or miss. The same discussion happened in the VS forum about the D6 wounds, to me the cannon is too hit or miss with it's 1 to hit roll and 2+ to wound to result in 2-4 wounds. Also, clipped wings is too punishing for flyers.

    3.
    Volley gun doesn't perform reliably enough. 3D6 shots means you either roll a low amount of shots or you get a -1 to hit. Over 12" range this means you hit on 6's. Not worth it for a machine that has to be standing in te middle of the battleline (giving easy overrun flank charges to which you can't even give a countercharge as per parent support mechanics). Not to mention what happens when an opponent finds out about soft cover.


    Exemplar's Flame - allow a prelate to take this as well. The item currently sees nearly no action as the special equipment capacity on wizards is too low (priorities for binding scrolls, heirlooms, destiny's call/essence of mithril, ...)

    General - Give a marshal on foot Great Tactician for free to incentivise on foot marshal generals

    Artificer - Give him the same rule as the VS characters when used on horse to discourage use as chaff

    Inquisitor - Give the bloke an extra attack to make him work with anything else than hammer of witches/blessed steel

    Pegasus - Would giving him hard target (1) be an option? This would also be in line with the DE LAB pegasus

    Young Griffon - Reduce AP to AP 2. I played with a lot of KotSG at the ETC and AP 3 is too much for these guys. Brutal.

    Arcane Engine - Bound Perception of Strength is amazing in an army with access to perception & word of iron. Would it be possible to set it to Ice & Fire for both coaches? Or another spell?

    Heavy Infantry - Change name to Line Infantry or anything other than 'Heavy' infantry

    Light Infantry - Moving with light infantry is very, very crippling currently... would there be an option to expand the Ready, Aim, Fire order to making them quick to fire?

    State Militia - could they be insignificant to all? I don't understand why Knights of the Sun Griffon would care about them leaving whilst light infantry don' t...

    Knightly Orders - change pricing so that weapon options are in the 5-10 points range and the unit itself is ~130 pts.

    Knights of the Sun Griffon - Reduce AP on the griffons to 2. Incredibly strong unit if the army is built around them.

    Cannon - Replace MW D3+1 with D3, make a bit cheaper. Too much hit or miss currently.

    Mortar - Maybe reduce to 5x5? Then again, I don't mind...

    Volley Gun - I'm not a fan as you either roll low on the amount of shots or get a -1 to hit... on a machine that hits on a 5+ on 12+" range without any conditions to ignore cover. Reduce to 2D6x2 shots or increase range to 30"

    Steam Tank - Too much of a hard anvil within the list. Remove unbreakable, replace with stubborn dis 10. Give it different weapon options? :D :D :D
    Have you checked out my Youtube channel yet? Link: https://www.youtube.com/@Ehakir

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Ehakir ().

  • Exemplars flame:

    Problem: works only on a certain unit and on your own turn. AND you need a veil token. Seems like too many ifs and whens.

    Artificer:

    Rerolling on misfire table is only really usefull, when rolling a 1 or 2. When rolling a 3 and 4, its mostly stupid to use the rr...

    Edit:

    would like if cannon is more like DL H spell. so a fix number of wounds and maybe even no to hit roll. or instead auto wound, to migitate the 1s to wound. i also feel like hitting and wounding with cannon is really hard, especially if the opponent then has an aegis. it becomes very lackluster.

    second edit:

    banner of unity.

    its very niche as well. would be cool if its just a second order maybe? right now the problem is often times the range or that no "good" order is available for a support unit.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Tobi_Tobsen ().

  • Exemplary is useless, complex with too many conditions. Change it completly or remove

    give something to the Dragon to incentive his use. Some kind of bonus to mix infantry with him, orders to 24? Possibility to be BsB? We can give anyway disc to 18" using household banner.

    In this way we can choose to go on foot with Marshal + BsB at around 600-700 pts or mounting the prince on dragon for aprox the same cost

    Artillery. Give more range to volley gun, and make it like 30"

    rocketeer, change to 1 wound and not 1 for each 1s rolled. I allways kill myself :whistling:

    If we use an engineer make our arty be like dwarves. If misfire, just one wound, or give him the ability to repair it
  • Suggestion: Exemplars flame:

    Rationale: high risk no real gain,



    Suggestion: Marshal. Great Griffon* Cannot be taken by the Battle Standard Bearer

    Rationale: Why so? Empire is Ld dependent, can be nice way to play wider.



    Suggestion: Engine and Altar auras.

    Rationale: Position is a nightmare, and makes games a lot slower, not very good design from that perspective.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Arosy: Following the rules ().

    • Suggestion: Marshall generals on foot
    • Rationale:Other choices are all too good in compariason of him. Which is a pity as it should be the common empire general more than prelates and knight commanders.



    • Suggestion: Heavy infantry with spears
    • Rationale: Taking halberd is a better choice at the same price




    • Suggestion: Canon
    • Rationale: It is expensive ... and totally random alone. So you have 2 solutions : Buy engineers and cont on wizard to help them which make it even more expensive or just count on you chance

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Mirdhynn ().

  • Banner of Unity should grant the unit the ability to give itself or a support unit an order. Make the banner give an extra order straight up instead of this bouncing effect.

    Exemplars Flame. Allow on Prelate. Remove need to choose a unit at deployment and make this item either give a bound spell or simply spend a veil token to give unit within 18" lethal strikes.

    Marshal General needs incentive. Free great tactician is a good choice. Alternatively something like support & parent units count as being 6" closer for purposes of orders and inspiring presence. So effectively 18" discipline bubble by default and 24" with household.

    Edit: Trimmed to 3 most important concerns.
    :OK: :EoS:

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Jomppexx ().

    • Suggestion: The steam tank is autoinclude
    • Rationale: random movement, R6, 1+ armour save, unbrekable is too good. Rather than increase the point cost, simplified the design. EoS is not about elite units, but about quantity. Maybe also remove 0-1.

    • Suggestion: The cannon is too elite
    • Rationale: it would fit better with the army style a cheaper cannon with lower S

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Litoperez ().

  • @Ehakir (your contribution is extraordinary and i sincerely thank you about that, but please follow each army's feedback's rules where you participate and post only 3 concerns), @Arosy, @Mirdhynn, @Jomppexx, @Litoperez please follow the feedback's rules:
    • One (1) post per person. That post can be edited;
    • Absolutely no discussion in this thread (any discussion will be deleted); please use the General Discussion thread for any comments;
    • Only problem identification, NOT solution identification;
    • Propose max. 3 issues.

    WDG Community Support

    Playtester

    GR Team Coordinator

    T9A fan

  • 1. Artillery (especially cannons) is far too inconsistent and expensive. Volley guns are the least effected by this issue due to the number of dice they (can potentially) roll.

    2. KotSG should have a 1+ armor save when equipped with a shield

    3. The army struggles to play wide across the field. Mediocre to poor leadership forces you to keep important units too close to the general / BSB. We need more options to expand that range
  • 1. Artillery/Cannons, a bit to random, even on 2+ hit and 2+ for wound, it's 31% chance to do nothing, and against a 5++ ward save, it's less than 50% chance to do damage... Sad...
    -> As a catapult ? Miss ? You can reroll to hit, but with a decrease for strenght and AP, like : S7/AP4/D3 cliping
    -> Artificer should be mode helpfull against missfire, like => Use Engineer, add +3 on missfire roll, without reroll of course

    2. Steamtank : Nice model, iconic, but really too mandatory...

    3. Imperial Prince on dragon who must be the general, so, against some armies, it's really difficult to take it, because a EOS army without a general, is hard to play
  • Lakonas wrote:

    @Ehakir (your contribution is extraordinary and i sincerely thank you about that, but please follow each army's feedback's rules where you participate and post only 3 concerns), @Arosy, @Mirdhynn, @Jomppexx, @Litoperez please follow the feedback's rules:
    • One (1) post per person. That post can be edited;
    • Absolutely no discussion in this thread (any discussion will be deleted); please use the General Discussion thread for any comments;
    • Only problem identification, NOT solution identification;
    • Propose max. 3 issues.

    Post edited
  • 1) Flagellants in Large Blocks are rarely ever taken, they don't have a role in the army and feel useless in their current from. The fanatical rule feels to elite and should be removed to reduce the price. Same for the two hand weapon, the old fail felt more fitting for them. They should be able to go to core if a prelate is in the army.

    2) Arcane engines are never taken unless they are a Mount.

    3) Imperial Guard with two hand weapons are way less taken then IG with hand weapon and Shied. Let them keep the shield if they and/or give them weapon Master.
  • 1) cavalry. With toxic breath becoming no 1 spell from occultism and general ap creep they are too expensive currently. They also need some synergy with army. I believe they could be parrent/support (maybe support would be a bit much, even on 5man units). This would also make a marshall be able to be general (I'm talking about imperial prince who is rarely taken). If you think knight commander wouldn't be taken he could always give order to his own unit

    2) Imperial guard. They are elite infantry with not so elite stats. they need something extra to work nice

    3) exemplar flame and mantle of ullor aren't very good items. They should be redesigned. At the same point I would like to raise one other item that is not used: long rifle. It would either allow model to shoot at other unit than his own unit, be able to target characters from unit (which probably is too strong), or have anything else done to it. Currently I don't believe it is taken at all


    additional mentions:

    pegasus could be given ht to streamline it with other pegasi being streamlined (de and koe come to mind)

    auras might be 8" to be same like orders, but then again most auras are 6" auras, so this one I believe is fine

    volley gun does not have good proce/utility value. having 24" of range and quite unreliable to hit values it isn't that good. Then again it is very prone to boosting (rerolls, +1 to hit etc.) which makes him hard to price correctly. his reliability should be increased I believe. spells wouldn't be tht good on it then and one could be taken (currently most 2 if any)


    EDIT:
    I just wanted to say that although I mentioned things that are not on par with rest of army, i think that it is generally quite fine. I really like how it works and synergy most of units bring. Very good job on that

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Shino ().

  • Light infantry:

    The range of the crossbows is so good that the ap bonus of the handguns does not even come into consideration when building lists


    Heavy infantry:

    spears seem underpowered


    Arcane engines and war altar:

    Aura range of only 6 inches requires an incredible amount of fidgeting to place in a satisfying position, especially since we have so many immobile/slow components in the army. Aura tange of 8 inches would speed up things and also streamline it with the range of orders and parent/support unit. this would be a large power boost



    Two minor things:

    Imperial Rocketeer should havea name change because it is now the only war machinethat is named after its crew rather than the actual weapon.

    Reiters with shield and lance are incredibly over costed.
  • 1. Foot Marshal (non-BSB), free great tactician or something like it. Ever seen-non general/bsb foot marshal? Foot marshal orders should also be measured from the unit (not the model) he is within. Would speed up game, because now you have to always check, if he's on the proper side of the unit etc. This would also go hand in hand with the paren/support range system.

    2. Heavy infantry: change name to line infantry.

    3. Exemplar's flame: make it less high risk item, remove some of the conditions.
  • 1. A General should make any unit he resides in a Parent Unit, if he matches the troop type of that unit.

    2. Imperial Guard should ABOLUTELY NOT lose shields when buying a weapon. Also, they should have the option to take spears and halberds, not only Great Weapons. And maybe increase their agility to 4, as it currently sticks out when KotSG in the same category and eliteness have 4.

    3.BSB upgrade should not be restricted to Marshals only. Consider BSB Prelate for example - 1 less attack, 1 less agility, 1 Less Discipline, no orders and has to pay for Plate armour, but gives hate and Bound spells. If that looks overpowered, take a look at other factions BSB's and if that still looks overpowered, then simply make the Prelate pay 50 points for this upgrade (and of course reduce his magic allowance to 100).

    I know this was supposed to be 3 points long, but there is much more that needs changing for this army to be truly competitive, so...

    4. Altar of Battle should be changed/have the option to cast it's bound spells on a single target 12"-18" away, instead of 6" aura that is simply too hard to play around. The same goes with it's Hate Aura - choose 1 unit within 12"-18" that recieves the benefit.

    5. Arcane Engine should have an inbuilt Aegis save (5+) to increase viability and it's aura's should get have the same treatment as the Altar of Battle.

    6. Militia should be insignificant to all units, not only Parent and Support.

    7. There should be two extra orders - one granting quick to fire and the other one giving battle focus. The first one is obviosuly to increase the efficiency of our almost horrendously overpirced Light Infantry, while the other one is to increase the damage output of big units in Line formation that do not get anything from FiER.

    8. Marshal Generals on foot should get an extro order for free. I have seen one foot marshal general in my life and he was in my list. THat would increase pickrate from abysmal to minimal i think. Marshals on foot IN general should be cheaper and have more expensive mounts to offset this discount.

    9. KotSG should get ap 2 on birds and 2+ save in CQC with halberds. Adjust the points to be equal with both variants. Going with 1+ save with Lances might be too far, but I would try it and maybe reverse it later if it prooves too strong.
  • Steam tank:
    After all these years and after some weird "point increase protection" still an autoinclude in most lists. Propably based on the combination of canon+decent Roadblock with random movement. In comparison with a lot of other single models still too cheap.

    Flagelants
    With all the mass destruction spells, units and the amount of shooting out there they seem to be overpriced. Def Ws 1 makes them like zombies with R4. Nice that they can attack once before they die. But they die super easy to everything. So too costly.

    Marshals / on foot charakters
    EOS is one of the few armies where you could field multiple on foot charakters with decent protection. It just makes little sense to do so. Having a cavalry bus with the parent rule on it and put multiple horse charakters inside it is in 90% of the time the way to go.