Pinned KOE COMPLEXITY REDUCTION - ALL WELCOME

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  • KOE COMPLEXITY REDUCTION - ALL WELCOME

    Hear ye, hear ye! It's almost that time of the year again - The Balance Patch!


    So what's this thread about? The second thing that RT are looking at this year, along with the usual points shifting and the new slight rules changes, is addressing concerns of growing complexity, particularly in some of the more complex books. KoE are one of these books.

    What does this mean in more practical terms? Essentially, the project wants to reduce the amount of brain clutter each army takes up. Obviously, "complexity" is a bit of an open concept, so we'd recommend the following questions as a guide for your feedback and help us (ACS) to go through and pick out patterns in opinions -

    • What rules do you need to explain over and over again?
    • What rules often come up as a reason for debate?
    • What units/rules do you think could be simplified?
    Keep in mind the goal is to simplify the game for everyone involved to create a better experience, both for you and your opponents. We don't want discussion about fixing weak units, the focus should be making units more fun, then balancing is doing via points after. What's important is the design.

    Discussion is encouraged, but stay on topic! It'll make our job a lot easier when the feedback is collected. ACS will be policing this. If in doubt about what you want to talk about, refer to the questions above! Enjoy!

    THE DEADLINE FOR THIS FEEDBACK IS SEPTEMBER 1ST. THIS THREAD WILL BE CLOSED AFTER THAT DATE, SO GET IN QUICK!
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    The post was edited 1 time, last by Just Wes ().

  • What rules do you need to explain over and over again?

    Courage and Honesty - The rules themselvves are not too complicated (and at least in my games do not come up often anyway), but for my opponents keeping track of wich unit has what rule is sometimes confusing (sometimes, the same model has different rules - 1 Lord has courage, the other has not, because he's a paladin for exmaple, Folk Hero with Cleric and without)

    What rules often come up as a reason for debate?

    Sometimes timing of orison tokens. Forgetting to declare at the beginning of turn or because opponents moves on to fast to shooting/magic.

    What units/rules do you think could be simplified?

    In my opinion, courage and honesty being two seperate rules doesn't add much and they do not matter enough.
    Also the orisons could be simpler to use and the fear effect isn't used that often in my experience (others said they use it, but I have no idea how often)

    Suggestion:
    • Orisons just give +1 to hit, choosable at the start of a combat round (Saint still gets a +1 aegis, +1 to hit and stackable fear in his rules)
    • courage, honesty and the +1 aegis effect of orison tokens are rolled into 1 rule that gives a more significant effect. +1 aegis vs. AP 3+ for example, or something similarly easy to remember.
    • adjust the token count for balance
    With that I hope the rules are clearer, opponents can easier expect what the tokens are used for and the most complex rules would then be easier to remember and apply.
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    The post was edited 2 times, last by McBaine ().

  • Has the Projekt still the "you are a mere human and can't have better stats" set in stone?

    If yes the discussion about special rules will be quite hard for KoE.

    If no we can start reducing all the special rules and give the units finally better stats to offset bad rules bloat

                    

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  • But for the topic:

    • What rules do you need to explain over and over again?
    1. Interesstingly it is the sainted +1 to hit and fear/terror/aegis
    2. Courage/honesty/ordeal. Rarely. Most people just trust when i say them "hey most of the time i will have a 5++ aegis, feel free to ask why and where. If i use orision i tell you". Out of the 3 ordeal gets asked the most often.
    3. #2 can be also just callled: Combat resolution (no ranks/ordeal)
    4. Relic

    • What rules often come up as a reason for debate?
      1. Oriflame because it was game deciding at a tournament for place 2/3/4
      2. Ordeal
      3. Accurate bowmen
      4. Relic

    • What units/rules do you think could be simplified?
      1. Orision/courage/honesty/ordeal
      2. Overall combat resolution at KoE. With Ordeal and champion banner


    Quite frankly the most time takes explaining your characters.
    Just look at a sainted or folk hero entry
    Equitan Lord, General, Hippogriff, Shield, Lance (Divine Judgement), Prayer-Etched, Black Knight's Tabard, Sainted, Honour
    1. Courage
    2. General
    3. Hippogriff (cold blooded)
    4. Divine judgment charge
    5. Divine judgement grind
    6. +Aegis item
    7. +Aegis Sainted
    8. Fear
    9. => terror from fear
    10. Remove MW
    11. +1 to hit sainted
    12. +2 charge FRONT only
    13. +2attacks on charge
    14. Stomp
    15. Inbuild Aegis profile
    15 different rules. four rules => over 20% of the rules just for Aegis (courage, inbuild and aegis item, aegis sainted)

    You could make the Mounts have an inbuild MAX Aegis or even the Sainted i dont know... i still think having a own Sainted character would be better *shrug*

                    

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    The post was edited 1 time, last by Klexe ().

  • While it could have been stated a bit more diplomatically, I do agree with the post above. The knights of KoE are meant to be able to go head to head with the best cavalry in the game while being limited to human statlines, which forces a heavier reliance on special rules than may be optimal for the projects envisioned complexity level.

    Even with the current amount of special rules, I do find myself wondering about the relative eliteness of our top cavalry, ie Questers and Resplendents, vs the eliteness of for example Knights of Ryma, Chaos Knights and Dread Knights and so forth. This, in my opinion, makes reducing complexity in KoE a matter of removing complexity from the rest of the book.


    I'd suggest removing, or preferably changing, Honesty. In my experience it's impact game wise is quite low, and having two different conditions for improving Aegis can be seen as confusing. In addition it's a new addition, so the removal or modification of it is unlikely to ruffle too many feathers.

    My second suggestion would be to take a hard look at the current rules for the trebuchet. While I find myself being positively giddy over the prospect of splattering 24 Vermin Legionnaires in one shot, in the vast majority of matchups it's either underwhelming or it introduces a lot of complexity with the possibility of flank shots, making my opponents movement phase a relatively ponderous experience of angle checking.

    The third entry I'd suggest going over is the peasant bowmen. In between Expert Archers, Prepared Positions, and Ordeal the unit has a lot of special rules for a low eliteness core ranged unit. (Edit: I love the current iteration of Peasant Bowmen, and that crossbows aren't straight better than the Longbow, just trying to be somewhat objective here).

    Edit 2: While there is a lot of complexity tied up with the character section, I really feel like it belongs there. After all, KoE are supposed to be the land of Heroes. Same with the Fey section, which really is an extension of the character section.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Askur Ingvaldsson ().

  • Haven’t played against KoE too much, for me it’s mainly the stacking of stuff that get confusing, especially on characters. I have no objection to KoE characters stacking special rules I think that’s kind of their point. I just wonder if some of the stackable rules could be simpler?

    Question for KoE players do you like the Orison system? As a outsider it seem like a lot of complexity for not much difference on the table.
    In my experience 9/10 it’s +1 hit or 5++, I wonder if giving a flat 5++ on knights and making the H spell +1 to hit in one/two combats before the next magic phase might have a similar effect on the table? Obvs something like this would be a massive change, just curious what KOE players think, do they like the complexity?
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  • Klexe wrote:

    Has the Projekt still the "you are a mere human and can't have better stats" set in stone?

    If yes the discussion about special rules will be quite hard for KoE.

    If no we can start reducing all the special rules and give the units finally better stats to offset bad rules bloat

    Worth noting that instead of multiple special rules (complex), one can have fewer but stronger special rules to achieve the same target eliteness.

    e.g. things like "reroll all failed to-hit, to-wound and armour save rolls", or a 4+ aegis, are still just one special rule.

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  • WhammeWhamme wrote:

    Klexe wrote:

    Has the Projekt still the "you are a mere human and can't have better stats" set in stone?

    If yes the discussion about special rules will be quite hard for KoE.

    If no we can start reducing all the special rules and give the units finally better stats to offset bad rules bloat
    Worth noting that instead of multiple special rules (complex), one can have fewer but stronger special rules to achieve the same target eliteness.

    e.g. things like "reroll all failed to-hit, to-wound and armour save rolls", or a 4+ aegis, are still just one special rule.

    This is a fine line.
    "reroll all failed to-hit, to-wound and armour save rolls" are three things to remember, even if they are under just one rule. It has more complexity than a rule that simply gives a 4+ aegis save. (At least under my understanding of "complexity", it might be worth defining it, so that we do not talk about different things)

    Just rolling multiple rules into one might not reduce complexity, to do that it should be a stronger, but still easy to remember rule - and that's the challenge.
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  • Orisons is mostly a quick i can do these three things here this special die shows you how many points i got left. Sainted = all three options tunred on allways.
    Most of the time it is people not waiting for orisons to be used at the start of a turn so that would be an option.
    Lantern is not used in any lists and is pure complexity. Just remove it and no oner would even flinch.
    I totally agree that archers got alot of special rules on hand for just a bowman unit. Can't they just get 3+ to hit with bows and remove all the rules and call it a day ? (just an idea no clue if that is to good)

    Unit champion upgrades and the whole character section is probably the most complex but it also shopuld be.
    Honesty / Curage could be merged into one and no one would be upset.

    Uther’s Mettle got alot of text for what it does and also rearly used. Cant that just be handeled like the Snow child knight ?
    Men at arms got three options where the best is rearly played and the other two might as well not exist. Make it so or give them the option to be Forlon and old Pilgrims ( helps with the people who are upset they cant play those anymore)

    The reliquary is in a great spot complexity wise.
    FIE and "Cold blodded" and when i use orison in cc i get my point back that is explained in a second.
    Different horses for different knights often confuse people. Penitents beeing the only unit in the book to not have honesty / orison/ ordeal is confusing as well. (i know the fluff reason just saying)
    Hedge knights if anyone would play them just got every special rule in the book during a charge that is quite complex in my book.

    The Treb is strangly unique where it does not need to be and people cant belive its strange stats.
    Courtier of dusk seems quite fine for me and is easy to explain Courtier of dawn often confused oponents when exactly his bonus works and dosent work.
    Fey knight ambush rules are flavor win complexity minus.

    Not the best written feedback i know but i was just browsing the book and thinking what came up during my games as i went along.
  • As an opponent, I find orison tokens to be very annoying. It’s difficult enough to prepare to play against an already complex book. The ability to alter the stats of a unit as the game progresses is too much. I realize other books have this ability, but also having to track how many tokens are available, and which units get what… I’d rather see a more simplified distribution of special rules.

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  • I’d be ok with the Friar’s Lantern entry being removed to lower the complexity budget. I think it’s too weird of an entry that just doesn’t really mesh well conceptually with the rest of the game.

    I like the current orison system and don’t find it that complex, but I may be biased as I play KOE, so I am familiar with how it works.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Karaghul ().

  • Please don’t remove the lantern it’s the most interesting unit in the book.

    Complexity wise the book feels fairly in line with the labs. Less complex than rats and ID and more in line with Deamons.

    I am firmly against reducing “complexity” as a whole in this game. It’s a feature not a bug.
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    The post was edited 1 time, last by NorCal Crass ().

  • grossmaul2130 wrote:

    I totally agree that archers got alot of special rules on hand for just a bowman unit. Can't they just get 3+ to hit with bows and remove all the rules and call it a day ? (just an idea no clue if that is to good)
    I can hear the elfen tears already (would also be a buff. Accurate is only long range and only on no move)

    Karaghul wrote:

    I’d be ok with the Friar’s Lantern entry being removed to lower the complexity budget. I think it’s too weird of an entry that just doesn’t really mesh well conceptually with the rest of the game.

    I like the current orison system and don’t find it that, but I may be biased as I play KOE, so I am familiar with how it works.
    I would merge latern and hooded men. Just give the negative move rule to the hooded men (bodkin arrows anyone?)

    TofuD2 wrote:

    #1) Remove friars lantern
    #2) Uthers mettle -> either switch to something simple like impact hits (d6) or S4 breath weapon
    #3) Courage / Honesty - combine in aegis +1 (max 4+) vs AP3 or more

    Ezpz
    Funny. It was ACS feedback that Wrymwood core should not be removed. Our fey mounts got a breath weapon because we lost the wrymwood core lol. It was a fan favorite support item.
    Echo pressed his idea of uther crap through. Complex and it is one of the first thing which gets removed when points are tight or you play to win.

    Problem with Courage/honesty is that these 3 things are the CORNORSTONE of the KoE Socitiy. It is the MOST important fluff/background piece but in the book Orison got the main part. Orison was liked by playtesting but overall it is not an success (imo)

    I think a complet rework of these 2 rules needs to be done. Orision are just a minor thing in the KoE world.
    Quite frankly the "inbuild 6+ aegis" is already the orision from background.

    People did "small" prayer to the goddess and wounds heal faster etc pp.
    a 6++ aegis makes sense there

                    

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  • Hello, For me :

    Universal Rules :

    Very Good.
    - Orisons is a good system, balanced.
    - Sainted : Good, but it s very hard to loose an orison when a lady want s to be sainted.

    Personal Protections : (Courage / Honesty / Ordeal)

    Very good.
    IMO, its perfect like this and smart.

    Lord :
    Forbearance : Why distracting only the second round ? I d prefer spend more points (40?) for always have distracting.

    Folk :
    Longbow (3+) and Shots 3 (0–1 Units/Army) : Why ? 0-3 seems better...
    Mounts seems a little bit expansives to be attractive (-5 points ?) no folk on heraltic steed, pegasus, unicorn at ETC for exemple...
    Heroic Traits : Very good balance i think

    Feudal : OK

    Ordo Sergeants + Rouncey : sounds like peasants... :)

    Lowborn Levies :
    - 6 points / model seems better (too many list without levies...)
    - Shield is very Expansive

    Lowborn archers :
    - Prepared Position : OK, good rules
    - Expert Bowmen : I don 't understand why...

    Penitents + quest : OK

    Men at arms :
    - Ordeal : OK
    - Ordo : Expansives
    - Forlorn : OK

    Hedge : good rules, but always a little bit expansives...(no Hedge at ETC...)

    Reliquary : OK but a little bit expansive ?

    Sky Heralds :
    The first Price is expensive... But good unit

    Pegasus : OK

    Hooded : OK, better than lowborn for 8 pts ? but it 's the good price, lowborn is too expansive because their rules (expert bowmens).

    Naiad : Good

    Friar's lantern : Tactical unit. good but needs a little rework.

    Courtier : good
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    • What rules do you need to explain over and over again?Explain
    character (principle + sainted + personnal protection + orison)


    • What rules often come up as a reason for debate?
    Orison timing :
    Kind the same issue than EoS order. With EoS you could forget to give order, wich is really boring, because it need to be given at beginning of the turn. So in general you give the order at beginning of the game, and tell your opponent you will not chnage except if you tell him.

    Here orison are more flexible with round of combat, wich is good ... But not always, you still need to choose at beginning of phase. It could also create some issue if opponent play to fast. What exactly is a beginning of phase, or a beginning of round ? My solution, would be to allow to use orison, before roll any dice for the KOE unit. Dont know exctly how to write it, but i think there is a way to find the right wording, to not allow debate anymore. Orison always possible to be used, as long KoE player dont have roll his own dice. (Ideally also during shooting or magic phase. but would make orison +1 special save more powerfull; so would require some nerf maybe somewhere else.)


    • What units/rules do you think could be simplified?
    - Sainted and other stack rules - Even for myself i find it always really difficult to visualise what will be the statline of my charatcer once sainted and special item added. I need to move from page 8 to 3 to 5 etc..

    - Expert bowmen - Rule : I love to play with bowmen, they are really efficient. but not sure its not too elitness for KOE. I think expert bowmen could be removed, as long there is a significant point cost reduction. Maybe start the unit size at 15 for the same cost. But i would keep prepared position for fun and fluff.

    - Men at arm - entry : Too many option. Replace them by 2 clear and distinguish entry would be really simplier.

    - reliquary - rules: i would just remove "If the model’s unit is the target of an Orison while Engaged in Combat, add one Orison Token to the owner’s Orison Token pool. Ignore this effect if a Character with Faith is part of the model’s unit." with a point cost reduction.

    - hedge knight - entry: too much competition into special option. i would suggest to just remove them or make them a low and cheap version of feudal knight ( with off def and str 3, armor 1 but with lance) and move them to core.

    -Hooded man - rule: cant we just make them always Enlisted Outlaws ? Would simplify their profil.

    - Naiad - entry : if a fey entry need to be remove its clearly naiad that should come first for me.

    -friar lantern - Rule: Please keep the unit, they really add some gameplay to KOE. But Illusion could be really simplied. Just replace by "
    for all interaction between friair lantern and an other unit, this unit is considered as getting Fly rule." So more simple for a more clear concept. We can ignore lantern and move through because they are just illusion.

    - Lady courtier - entry : lots of rules for at the end the same result than a wizard. But cheaper, because you get also a fighting character. Maybe could you merge courtier and naiad; to make only one fey wizard entry. And reduce fight ability, to keep it for fey knight. or merge with fey knight.

    - fey knight - rule: Bound to the land could be simplified. It feel its just a flavour rule, wich is good. But maybe there is an other way to link fey knight to terrain more simple than using ambush (wich is already a relaly complex rule) with exception.

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    The post was edited 9 times, last by Casp ().

  • Rules to simplify:
    Ordeal: untis with ordeal count as having +2 ranks when checking for steadfast
    -less to explain, less to forget, and stil fits the concept of the peasants doing their best in spite of being out of their league

    Courage: enemy attacks are resolved at -1 AP
    -always on, easier to remember still a protection vs high AP

    (Honesty is already always on, so should stay)

    Daring: it adds to complexity with no real gain, 2 units have a 8% chance to panic, the 3rd one 17%(and they shold not really have it), just give the knights fearless and let the hooded men reroll panic (they should be able to flee voluntarily), and we save quite some things to explain and remember

    Trebuchet. just give it area 5x5, it will save some time in opponents movement phase