Feedback for Balance Patch 2022 -- FOR DH PLAYERS

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  • Feedback for Balance Patch 2022 -- FOR DH PLAYERS

    Greetings respectable Thanes, guild masters and anyone else with a beard who bases their diet on fermenting hops or barley and sleeps in summer in chain mail pyjamas!

    This is the first of two threads for collecting feedback from the community for this year’s Balance and Design Patch. We are collecting information about what fixes are needed for the DH, from both the community of faction-players and the community at large.

    What are we looking for?

    • Which units or items or special rules just “don’t work” and will “never work” no matter how cheap they will become;
    • This can include such things as Battle Runes, which likely won’t be helped by a lower casting value;
    • We are not looking for things like Thyroscutus, which after several point drops did see usage.


    Here are the rules:

    • One (1) post per person. That post can be edited;
    • Absolutely no discussion in this thread (any discussion will be deleted); please use the General Discussion thread for any comments;
    • Only problem identification, NOT solution identification.
    • Propose max. 3 issues.


    Rationale:
    A short 1-2 sentence explanation, or bullet points about why you think this entry is a problem.

    Please remember, this is a thread ONLY for people playing the army. Your posts may be curated. There is another thread (found here) for players not playing the army. Only post once in both. Feel invited to also post in other armies threads for nonplayers of that army.

    This thread will stay open until 1st of September and than ACS will distill the suggestions into a list. RT will then take this list to a set number of issues and add redesigns to lower highly complex units/items/special rules.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Lakonas: Added: Propose max. 3 issues and deadline ().

  • -Rangers.They compete with a core unit of similar price and effectiveness, while at the same time most of the other non-core options bring something new to the table.

    -Rune of Resonance. Very complicated wording. Not particularly helpful or attractive compared to other runic spells.

    -Deep Watch. If you look at their entry individually they are great, but with core of similar or better value for money, and a rune providing stubborn, they will really struggle to see any play.

    The post was edited 3 times, last by john doc ().

  • 1) Rangers see little play after years of point reductions here and there. The pickrate even became lower this season. I think we are at a point that we better can change the rules of this unit to make choosing this unit more attractive. That said, I'm a big believer in points reduction as a solution, so still think that a meaningful reduction does wonders. Meaningful in my book is 25% and more. As history has shown that the decisionmakers make very small steps instead, I think a point reduction is not feasible to fix rangers in the coming update. However, I do applaud when meaningful changes are applied.

    Proof of the low pickrate in 2022 season:


    Proof of low pickrate in 2021 season:


    2) Forge Wardens: Despite the point reduction there is no proof the pickrate is improving. Actually, against my earlier thought, it even declined a bit. This makes forgewardens a unit with a (very) low pickrate now for a long time. With the same reasoning as under point 1 I think we can better change the rules instead as it seems the magnitude of the point reductions isnt enough to create an effect.

    Edit: i do a bit more research on the decline of FW from 2021 to 2022. Cannot believe it actually.

    3) Our magic item section is really unbalanced as seen below. A whole number of DH specific runic items almost never see play: runic standard of steadiness NEVER saw play in 2022 season and Rune of kinship is also very very low. Then there is large group of underpicked items including rune of storms and rune of grounding and rune of penetration. I think all these specificly designed armies deserve to be way more then pagefillers in our slim book. Same logic applies as in 1 and 2. As long as no meaningful point reductions can be applied, better change their rules instead.

    Proof of unbalanced 2022 magic items pickrate:



    Hope to see some result of my grumbling in the update! Good luck @ACS and @rulesteam on this challenge!
    Co-creator of 9th Age Data Analysis dashboard. Report your games here to make them count in it.

    The post was edited 6 times, last by Sander ().

  • 1. Forge Wardens- we have this iteration of forge wardens for 3-4 years and unfortunatly it has never been an interesting choice and amount of point reduction over the years just proves the point that they cannot be fixed with just point reduction.
    2. Deep Watch- imho they must compete in "anvil" role with graybeards. Stats wise they are graybeards but with better save and bodyguard. I think that points reduction wont fix the problem because graybeards are in core and kings guard are better "bodyguard" unit. Also because of new unites in LABs they dont feel special anymore. as i said already they are graybeards with +1 save most of the time. Make Deep Watch great again ;).
    3. Rune Items- teribble internal balance, some choices are just boring or too situational to be used.
    Cheers :)

    The post was edited 1 time, last by anzu ().

  • What I never played:
    1. Runic Standard of Steadiness. Why? I already stated that - there are 3 units that can benefit from it (Xbows Marksmen, GCHG Marksmen and Rangers), two of which can't take standard at all. Also shooting effect on it even on largest units is not comparable to any CC-oriented standard!
    2. Rune of the Storms - just plain Meh. I do not see value in it.
    3. Rune of Precision - with Off 7 or 8 and wide access to rr to-hit paying more then 10pts is a waste.
    4. Rune of Penetratation - same as above - waste of points, better to take RS instead.
    5. Runic Standard of Anvil - you need to first loose combat to benefit from it!
    6. Rune of Mastery - looses competition with ANY other talismanic rune RS has access to!
    7. Runic Standard of Dismay - when I realized it doesn't improve SnS it's meh!
    8. Rune of Denial - not for 90pts, sorry!
  • For me there are 4 paths that can be taken to make Rangers appealing:

    1. Drop price significantly on chasis - right now Clan Warriors with Vanguard and same equipment are cheaper then Rangers! Same applies to Xbow Rangers - they are more expensive then Marksmen, but being special and additional rules do not seem worth it. With dropping price by 3-4ppm Xbows can be raised to keep healthy balance with other shooters.
    2. Give non-Crag Warden's access to Magic Standards. This would allow playing more character heavy Rangers (and Rune of Kinship would also benefit).
    3. Make something crazy: keep price of chasis and give basic statline 2 Attack Value! Of course this would mean that all upgrades should be more expensive and fully kitted Ranger would be more expensive then Greybeard, but hey! 2 Att on unit with Shieldwall! Something unique (even with S3)!
    4. Drop price on CC options and give Weapon Master. Most probably then PWs and GWs should be single upgrade anyway.
    For me 4th option would be most consistent with what I imagine when I think about Dwarf Rangers...
  • 1) runic standard of steadiness nearly useless. it works only for crossbows and handguns (still isnt complefely ignoring unweildy). plus advance rate of 3" doesnt help to use it either

    2) shrapnel grenades on regular copters are detrimental. nearly impossible to see its use

    3) too many rules

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Danila ().

  • [Drew opens the heavy cover of his book of grudges, turning the pages to the DH Army book section]
    1. Shield Wall. I would like to see the garbage that is Shield Wall fixed. I mean, great idea and all, but when you have KoE Peasants that basically get the same thing, but don't have to buy shields, don't have to use said shields, get it on everything in the close combat phase (impacts, grinds, breath, stomp, attacks from the flank and rear), then also get it on everything outside the melee phase it makes it clear the rule is a complete joke.
    2. Deep Watch. - Poor guys have a special rule built on a rule that is already garbage. And, given the complete lack of highly armoured units like knights, they can't even stand toe to toe with them.
    3. Hewn out of Mountains. I think changing Hewn out of Mountains to a -1 to cast would make it much more useful (yeah yeah yeah, no solutions, so shoot me. Oh wait, it would be Dwarf shooting, so probably wouldn't hit anyway). This would have the synergy of making casting a tad harder for casters, as well as making dispelling a tad bit easier

    DH Community Support

    :DH: :OK:

    The post was edited 1 time, last by drewaustin: Edited post down as requested, I think. Lakonas’ post calling out pretty much everyone who posted in the thread is not really specific, but I’m thinking it’s raising too many points raised? ().

  • 1) Deep Watch - they only die slowly and aren’t even particularly good at that anymore when so much (and an increasing amount each LAB) bypasses their special rule.

    2) Runic system - a lot is overpriced and therefore never used, it’s very unbalanced. Also the increased tax we pay makes movement 3 characters pretty costly without adding much. “Rune smith only” is a huge tax to pay for anti magic.

    3) elite shooting - rangers and forge wardens see basically no play.
    Free command groups for standard infantry.

    Remove ranks from Gigantic.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Cam ().

  • 2. Runic Standard of Steadiness - as already pointed, out of all our shooting units only marksmen with crossbows (or eventually bsb ;p) can use it and that would still mean probably hitting on 6s instead of hopeless shot.

    3. Runic Standard of Anvil - never used it, never considered it. Even for 10pts i would prefer Aether Icon than this or no banner at all.

    9. Rune Crafted Cannon - well this upgrade works mostly for the grape shot mode. Such situations are quite rare on table top if things go well or at least not terrible for DH player. I have never used, nor seen someone use it to date.
    2018 WTC - 2nd place
    2019 ETC - Team Poland Coach
    2022 WTC - 2nd place

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Mojzesz: Edited due to rules of feedback. ().

  • @Danila @drewaustin @Mojzesz @Traumdieb

    @WarX this is not a suggestion feedback, but more of an issue raising one.
    For more info please take a look in the internal forum from today's post, If you have questions you can always pm me.

    please edit your raised issues to the feedback's rules:
    • One (1) post per person. That post can be edited;
    • Absolutely no discussion in this thread (any discussion will be deleted); please use the General Discussion thread for any comments;
    • Only problem identification, NOT solution identification.
    • Propose max. 3 issues.

    WDG Community Support

    Playtester

    GR Team Coordinator

    T9A fan

    1. Runic Standard of Shielding, Staediness and The Anvil are all useless. (PLUS ALL BATTLE RUNES ARE AWESOME)
    2. Deepwatch and Forgewardens are useless
    3. Copters need to be more effective at crowd controll
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    When strolling around before going to bed, a mean Orc might whack you on the back of your head!
  • 1. Rangers overlap too much with marksmen essentially coming down to a core tax question. They need some other role or effect.

    2. Miners are only ever taken as scoring and shooting units. They do not work as effective Combat units because of their max size restriction and 0-2 units restriction. Contrast to other armies ambushing options (beast herds, vermin swarm, undying dynasties), these can be taken in sufficient sizes or numbers to be able to project enough threat. (Often also in core)

    3. Runic standard of steadiness is not good enough for a banner slot. The penalty for moving is still too steep, even when activating the banner.
    Previously Echunia
  • 1. The catapult without rune needs at least AP 1 or even 2 in my opinion. It got even worse than the imperial ( EoS) mortar which once was far weaker than the catapult and now has S3 AP1. So the problem with the catapult is that it is "only" playable with the runes on it and thus the Runes somehow are an auto-include because the dmg output without is just super meagre.

    2. Rangers need something I think to make their skirmish, light troop more usable what is not really the case with unwieldy crossbows. I wrote something in another thread about giving them a light crossbow, a version with "just" 24" range but therefor no unwieldy. Also the problem I see with the scouting Rangers is that almost the whole dwarven army can be vanguard and thus scouting is not that important or worth it to pay for anymore.

    3. Kingsguard is very special. Not sure if they still can be the elite unit in a game in which every unit is at least throwing 20-40 attacks in their face before they are even allowed to lift their arms. Also something to address maybe. Several ideas written down in other threads.
    ETC 2007 - 1st place Team Germany - Orc Speed Freaks - Warhammer 40k
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  • 1.Strudy, Devastating Charge part. Barely see's any play with mv 3+


    2. 75% of our runic system. We are restricted out of Core Rb items, yet our variety of items is realy small, and most of them are overpriced/too weak.


    3.Copters and Grudge Busters do not benefit form out racial special rule(strudy).A unit's that could use Devastating Charge part just don't have it for some reason. Cmo'n rly?

    CaptainChaos wrote:

    (...)Another time, unkillable gyrocopters with this absurdly powerful bombing destroyed my ranks.(...)
  • Want to state that I am very happy with the book. These are the things that "annoy" me the most.

    1. Rune of steadiness: It should also take away unwieldy. Quick to fire alone is to few if you got unwieldy.

    2. Organ Gun: To expensive, make it cheaper with 2 W6 Shots instead of 2x 2 W6 or 3 W6.

    3. Miners: Make them cool with underground ambush.
    The Crown of Fangs [the strings behind the fools] (VC)
    The Bad Beards (ID)
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    The post was edited 1 time, last by Traumdieb ().

  • 1. Forge Wardens
    We all see how often they're picked. They're too specialized shooters in my opinion (S3 AP0 2+ to hit makes them "anti-elf skirmishers hiding in woods" only) and in terms of CC there are better S4 choices (shield wall, better AR, other support functions)

    2. Vengence Seeker
    I can't remember when I last seen one (when 2-3y ago I tested him?). Too easy to kill & too slow for its purpose (redirector? flyers are faster; monster kill? lots of other choices with more survivabilty; terror-to-many units like Gnasher Wrecking Team? too low output, too slow, too predictable with charges).

    3. Runic Smith vs Anvil
    Well - Anvil does it better for a smaller price, is easier to hide and 3 runes can make for the whole magic phase (put 1-2 standards of wisdom and that's it). Runic Smith is easier to kill than other characters, has damage output close to none and it's unit buff is not significant (+1 AP vs possibility to be killed in CC; I wonder how it would be if it was +1 AR though? :) ), in terms of magic is has lower casting range. Only special anti-magic runes give him some utility but these are very pricey (too pricey?).
    PS. And in increasing price of Anvil is not a good answer -> 3 runes are still below 4 spell Master Wizard with +1 to cast and kited Rune Smith is close to this cost.

    (last second edit) 4. Runic Weapon Enchantments
    Generally feel overpriced vs other books / Arcane Compendium. In my feeling they are only used to fully kit suicidal / first strike Dragon Lords (so only very specific types of list).