Fear and Terror

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    • Fear and Terror

      I had my first tournament of Ninth Age last weekend and I was struck by the changes to the Fear special rule.

      1: Most of Daemons and Undead losing "Fear".
      Daemons, Skeletons and Zombies that don't cause "Fear"?!? Have you seen the Walking Dead?! Zombies are freakin' scary man! It doesn't make sense to have these units not cause Fear, you can talk about balance all you want but it feels wrong for such inherently scary unit types to not actually be scary according to the rules...

      2: The Fear-rule itself: the -1 Leadership effect feels feels tacked on.
      It is inelegant rules-writing. It is one of those small details that new players (or players coming from 8th edition) will forget or miss because it comes out of nowhere. I assume it was changed because of balancing issues, Fear did too little in a world where everyone re-rolls their Ld-tests, so it's effect was buffed but that made the Undead and Daemon armies to strong so Fear was removed from most Undead and Daemon units.

      Therefor I propose the following changes:
      Fear (X)

      All enemy units in base contact with one or more models with this special rule suffer a -X Leadership modifier. At the start of each Combat Round, units in base contact with one or more enemy models with the Fear special rule must take a Leadership Test. If this test is failed, the models in the unit have their Weapon Skill reduced to 1 for the remainder of the Combat phase. Models that are Immune to Psychology or that have Fear themselves are immune to the effects of Fear.


      Terror (X)
      When a unit with one or more models with this special rule declares a Charge, its target must take a Panic Test. If the test is failed, the target of the Charge must declare a Flee Reaction, if able to do so. Furthermore, all models with Terror also have the Fear (X) special rule and are immune to Fear and Terror.
      It allows the armybook developers to apply appropriately background-based scariness to the units in game. For example, most core Undead and Daemon units could be Fear (0) and things can revert to the way they should be... :)

      Christiaan
    • I like the idea to concretize the rules and the fear (x) and terror (x).


      Concerning the close combat malus for a failed fear test, I would like to go back to the rule similar to 7th ed and not 8th ed.

      7th: failed fear test = 6s to hit
      8th: failed fear test = ws1

      Failing a fear test should only make the unit hit less and not also be hit better.
      If I feared somebody I would concentrate on defending, hide behind my shield, try to keep the enemy on distance etc. and not throw my hands in the air and shout "Here I am, hit me, hit me!!!"

      To bring the fear (x) systematic into play I would suggest the rule:

      9th: failed fear test = To Hit - (x+1), which can not be worse than 6s.
      That means:
      - failed fear(0) test = -1 to hit
      - failed fear(1) test = -2 to hit
      - failed fear(2) test = -3 to hit

      Examples
      Fear (0): all undead, demons, otherworldly, monstrous units, charging cav with at least AS 3+, mark of pestilence, flaming attacks.
      Fear (1): vampiric units, monstrous undead+demons+forest spirits,
      Fear (2): monsters; unique terrifying units like banshees

      Quick Starter Team

      Playtester


      The post was edited 1 time, last by DJWoodelf ().

    • DJWoodelf wrote:

      Failing a fear test should only make the unit hit less and not also be hit better.

      If I feared somebody I would concentrate on defending, hide behind my shield, try to keep the enemy on distance etc. and not throw my hands in the air and shout "Here I am, hit me, hit me!!!"

      Good idea. Although for simplicity's (steamlining's) sake I would make it a flat "unit gains Distracting rule against enemy unit that has failed a fear test".

      However, I like the change that Fear is rare and has a large impact (i.e. -1Ld).
      I understand the argument that zombies are kinda scary, but so is a frothing berserker or a wall of cavalry charging you down. In a world that in which fighting supernatural beings is day-to-day reality, a shambling, badly-coordinated, slow-witted corpse is nothing of note.
      I also understand the reluctance to accept changes from a system that you may have played with (against?) for decades, but this is no argument in itself. I have trouble relearning to play my vampire counts, but I'm very happy to see some monsters actually causing fear against the Ld9+ troops that are so common.
    • Wow, I didn't realize that they took fear from these undead units. I quite disagree that undead would be a common occurrence to most residents of the Old World, given the prohibitions and harsh measures against necromancy. And heavy cavalry charging at infantry should cause fear - that was some scary stuff in the medieval world (on which this whole game is modeled). Undead units should cause fear - to me that's half the fun of playing the undead is that unsettling effect you have on your opponent's troops. I definitely will not bother to break out my undead for 9th Age.
    • Mars Ultor wrote:

      Wow, I didn't realize that they took fear from these undead units. I quite disagree that undead would be a common occurrence to most residents of the Old World, given the prohibitions and harsh measures against necromancy. And heavy cavalry charging at infantry should cause fear - that was some scary stuff in the medieval world (on which this whole game is modeled). Undead units should cause fear - to me that's half the fun of playing the undead is that unsettling effect you have on your opponent's troops. I definitely will not bother to break out my undead for 9th Age.
      Why would a zombie or skeleton be scarier than an blood crazed dread elf, or a raging black orc?

      Honestly this change was good. Fear was useless in last edition.
      Rules Questions?

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    • Lagerlof wrote:

      Mars Ultor wrote:

      Wow, I didn't realize that they took fear from these undead units. I quite disagree that undead would be a common occurrence to most residents of the Old World, given the prohibitions and harsh measures against necromancy. And heavy cavalry charging at infantry should cause fear - that was some scary stuff in the medieval world (on which this whole game is modeled). Undead units should cause fear - to me that's half the fun of playing the undead is that unsettling effect you have on your opponent's troops. I definitely will not bother to break out my undead for 9th Age.
      Why would a zombie or skeleton be scarier than an blood crazed dread elf, or a raging black orc?
      Honestly this change was good. Fear was useless in last edition.
      it was definitely a huge improvement how the rule and the mechanics are at the moment compared to 8th.
      To go on with the example: in a world full of magic and monsters a zombie is the last creature that is feared by beings that are there to fight.

      But the rule itself may still be improved a lot...with things that are already mentioned:
      - make fear(x) of the rule with effects that have to be defined
      - remove the shitty effect of lowering the WS to 1 by an effect that also has to be defined

      Quick Starter Team

      Playtester


    • Kholdaimon wrote:




      1: Most of Daemons and Undead losing "Fear".
      Daemons, Skeletons and Zombies that don't cause "Fear"?!? Have you seen the Walking Dead?! Zombies are freakin' scary man! It doesn't make sense to have these units not cause
      Just one question: In the world of Warhammer, where empire of man, dwarfs and elves are fighting against greenskins, chaos, undead and other dragons and monstrosities how do you think, it is really scary to face against pity zombie? What about full-plated chaos warlord or big and brute ogre blood shaman? Yes Blood shaman nor Chaos lord don't have fear, so why zombie should have it?
    • Lagerlof wrote:

      Mars Ultor wrote:

      Wow, I didn't realize that they took fear from these undead units. I quite disagree that undead would be a common occurrence to most residents of the Old World, given the prohibitions and harsh measures against necromancy. And heavy cavalry charging at infantry should cause fear - that was some scary stuff in the medieval world (on which this whole game is modeled). Undead units should cause fear - to me that's half the fun of playing the undead is that unsettling effect you have on your opponent's troops. I definitely will not bother to break out my undead for 9th Age.
      Why would a zombie or skeleton be scarier than an blood crazed dread elf, or a raging black orc?
      Honestly this change was good. Fear was useless in last edition.
      I think you and some others missing the point here. It's not that they're great fighters - no, they're not. And, yeah, it takes some guts to stand up to a blood crazed dread elf or raging black orc - that's part of showing up on the battlefield period. In many versions of the undead, it's the wave of fear that precedes them, partly generated by seeing a dead thing come at you which knows no fear and partly magically generated fear. It's not a fear that can be rationalized.

      But, hey, you guys are free to write whatever version you want.
    • Mars Ultor wrote:

      Lagerlof wrote:

      Mars Ultor wrote:

      Wow, I didn't realize that they took fear from these undead units. I quite disagree that undead would be a common occurrence to most residents of the Old World, given the prohibitions and harsh measures against necromancy. And heavy cavalry charging at infantry should cause fear - that was some scary stuff in the medieval world (on which this whole game is modeled). Undead units should cause fear - to me that's half the fun of playing the undead is that unsettling effect you have on your opponent's troops. I definitely will not bother to break out my undead for 9th Age.
      Why would a zombie or skeleton be scarier than an blood crazed dread elf, or a raging black orc?Honestly this change was good. Fear was useless in last edition.
      I think you and some others missing the point here. It's not that they're great fighters - no, they're not. And, yeah, it takes some guts to stand up to a blood crazed dread elf or raging black orc - that's part of showing up on the battlefield period. In many versions of the undead, it's the wave of fear that precedes them, partly generated by seeing a dead thing come at you which knows no fear and partly magically generated fear. It's not a fear that can be rationalized.
      But, hey, you guys are free to write whatever version you want.
      I see your point but VC would be OP as hell if everything caused fear
      Rules Questions?

      ETC 2016 - Referee
      ETC 2017 Warm-up Herford - Head Judge
      ETC 2017 Salamanca - Head Judge
      ETC 2018 - Team Sweden - Ogre Khans
      ETC 2019 - Team Sweden
    • Lagerlof wrote:

      Mars Ultor wrote:

      Lagerlof wrote:

      Mars Ultor wrote:

      Wow, I didn't realize that they took fear from these undead units. I quite disagree that undead would be a common occurrence to most residents of the Old World, given the prohibitions and harsh measures against necromancy. And heavy cavalry charging at infantry should cause fear - that was some scary stuff in the medieval world (on which this whole game is modeled). Undead units should cause fear - to me that's half the fun of playing the undead is that unsettling effect you have on your opponent's troops. I definitely will not bother to break out my undead for 9th Age.
      Why would a zombie or skeleton be scarier than an blood crazed dread elf, or a raging black orc?Honestly this change was good. Fear was useless in last edition.
      I think you and some others missing the point here. It's not that they're great fighters - no, they're not. And, yeah, it takes some guts to stand up to a blood crazed dread elf or raging black orc - that's part of showing up on the battlefield period. In many versions of the undead, it's the wave of fear that precedes them, partly generated by seeing a dead thing come at you which knows no fear and partly magically generated fear. It's not a fear that can be rationalized.But, hey, you guys are free to write whatever version you want.
      I see your point but VC would be OP as hell if everything caused fear
      If you modify the rule to fear(x) and give normal undead and demons fear(0), then they won't be overpowered. Just a fear test for the enemy without a LD modifier.

      Quick Starter Team

      Playtester


    • @Klexe: I'm probably the last person who has not seen The Walking Dead (wife won't watch it), and I'm not sure how they fit into typical undead versions. I had the feeling the zombies are hard to kill (and harder than in WHFB/T9A, though necromancers bringing them back kinda balance, I guess).

      @lagerlof: 6th edition had a fear rule that was much more punishing but the VC armies (where just about everything caused fear) were able to be beaten, especially if general was killed. I've been on both the winning and losing ends on both sides of those battles.

      I suppose it's just a matter of preference.
    • the fear setting depend not only by the rule balance but also by the BG

      in an ambientation where it's supposed to live in a nrmal medieval worl (ok with more races but always 2normal") an undead, or a demon damnit they are scary!!!! militia is prepared ti fight savage orcs, insidius dread elfs, or mighty dwarfs but is not prepared to fight demons and undeads, because it supposed that deads stay dead and demons stay in their world...



      in an ambientation highly magic where the normal people know that there are a lot of powers capable to raise deads or summon creature by the otherwolrd well that's less scary, at least for a militian that is prepared in his trainig to face also unnatural enemies...



      so personally i don't mind that undeads and demons lost this rule as general rule, only who really is scarying now have it and not stupid zombies or skelly that are feebler then normal militians...


      would be different if the skelly/zombie unit is an horde... an horde of undeads, also lesser undead, will scary anyone i suppose XD
    • Sry thats plain wrong.
      In the warhammer world even humen milita do NOT fear the undead.... they fight undead on a daily basis.
      They have wizzards which can delete towns in a matter of seconds. The normal state milita is fighting undead every day.

      So then WHY should a elf or knight who fights for fun lions and fights with dragons and pheonixes fear an zombie... this just doenst make sense.

      Zombies und skelltons are not scary at all!
      A blackorc? yes he is scarry because in the end both will try to kill you but the one is a running walking killing maschine and the other are bones

                      

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    • fear is not only the fear to die...

      why an undead cause fear and a savage orc not?

      both may kill me but after that the orc can do nothing to my soul... undeads or deons may steal or eat my soul, damn me, poor militian and so yes i can be scared by moth bu the thrue fear is for somethign i don't know, is for unnatural creature that menace me to hurt me also in the afterlife...

      then we can stay here searchign for the true nature of the fear... XD but i don't think is what is requested :P
    • i'm speaking of popular credences, the fear of the death or of a restless dead, to know that also after my detah my soul may be forced back and used like a puppet...


      or eaten by the spirits following an undead army...


      it's... flavour... not rules....and as i say a lot depend by the general setting, how much people know about that?

      personally in our real word... i would be more scared and shocked by a walking skelly, or by a zombie trying to bite me then by a a huge man charging me while riding a barded war bull...
    • not it is just what you want it to be or what you think it should be.

      Perhaps elven don't have souls ? Or dwarfs or whatever. Do not transfer your wishes into a fantasy world.

      Before everyone had fear because it was crap. Fear was a rule which was for 99% useless but when it worked it was really annoying.

      They change fear to be meaningfull and not a random luck event.
      But with the change fear on every undead unit would be too strong.

      I agree that fear was flavorful but in the same context it wasn't.

      Why should a humen for example fear a dreads principles the same as a mere zombie or Skelton. In the end the balancing is more important then just 1 weak flavor rule

                      

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    • may be i ahve not been really clair in my firsts post :)

      i think the actual rule is good and reflect a setting where the knowledge about undead and demons is common.

      if the staff chosen this way is fine :)

      i was sinmply saying that not in all ambinetations/background there is the same knowledge and so in some also a stupid skelly may be more scaring then a furius orc :)


      then... speaking in general about the fluff rules... yes some of them are useless, some may be have no sense, but the most of them made this game what we like and love, so sometimes the balance work must keep this in consideration (i repeat, i'm speaking in general not for the fear rule).
    • Klexe wrote:

      In the end the balancing is more important then just 1 weak flavor rule
      I agree.
      Please, proceed to delete Lighting Reflexes, Imperial Supporting Units, Daemonic Inestability, Marks of de Dark Gods, Bretonian Lance Formation, Cold-blooded and Born to Fight, since they are unbalancing flavor rules.
      Undead Legions should be back from the grave! With blackjack. And hookers!

      In fact, forget about Undead Legions...

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Monjis ().