Pinned HE General and News - Discussion

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The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

  • Unless they change the game so champions cannot be targeted when allocating attacks, that’s a Bad Idea. Even a Flame Warden champion dies if 6 empore spearmen take a whack at him. Considering how expensive bound spells would be......

    I doubt we’d be given IMPACTFUL bound spells. :/
    My army has rocks, papers, and scissors. The reason you lost this war is that you thought we were playing checkers at every battle. - Anon. Highborn Elf Prince.
    Highborn Master of the Infantry and aspiring Equitaininan Champion of the Lady.

    Playtester

    DL Army Community Support

  • Fnarrr wrote:

    AlexCat wrote:

    Maybe look into making the frost phoenix into a magic conclave-type thing, instead of its aura ability that no one seems to like. It could cast Chilling Howl. And as a side effect, scarification will make it scarier in combat
    And other 2-3 spells to choose from, what will you suggest? Ice&Fire and Perception of Strength seem fitting.
    I like the idea of either Awaken the Beast or Savage Fury, personally - basically directing the frostie into more of a combat role.
    If we are talking full rework, I'd say merge both phoenix types into one Phoenix, standardize their profiles, make it Wizard Conclave with mandatory Ice & Fire and a choice between Chilling Howl & something from Pyromancy, and then maybe that choice would alter its sweeping attacks to match Ice & Fire.

    I feel like the fate of the Phoenix would be background driven though. Are the two phoenixes separate species? Are they different life stages of the same thing? How quickly does a phoenix switch between those life stages? Is it linked to the Cosmology fluff and Fire / Ice are representations of Cosmos / Chaos?


    On a self-indulgent side note, I ordered my elves today. Wheee!
    I have always felt that the phoenix should be an extension of a Master Mage. The creature is as much magical as it is physical and its' abilities should reflect this.
    My idea would be to have the phoenix be able to extend the casting of a spell of a Master Mage to say 10" from the Phoenix where ever it is on the table. Fire Phoenix limited to Pyromancy and Frosty limited to Alchemy, (Just change the attribute to "Freezer Burn and it will fit better) ;)
    Bring back the ability for these creatures to make sweeping attacks, using the attribute spells of their lore. All flyers should be Hard Targets IMHO, and these creatures should have an Aegis of 4+. In CC they are large and should have impact hits, (if the charged) as well as stomps on normal sized opponents.
    Personally, I don't have these models, so it is not a desire that I feel I need but it is what I feel fits these creatures better than what they have now. I do not see these as mounts, nor do I see more than one kind on a battlefield at any one time. Either one or the other, but not one of both.
    That is my 2 Pence worth on Phoenix.
    7308-fantasy_art-fire-phoenix-748x468.jpg
    Failure is not an option.
  • Aenarion43 wrote:

    Unless they change the game so champions cannot be targeted when allocating attacks, that’s a Bad Idea. Even a Flame Warden champion dies if 6 empore spearmen take a whack at him. Considering how expensive bound spells would be......

    I doubt we’d be given IMPACTFUL bound spells. :/
    I wouldnt be opposed to that, with the exception of if the HBE player nominates him for a duel of course.

    Regardless, the advantage of a bound spell would come before the opportunity to kill him anyway. Besides that, look at the bigger picture, the advantage of a bound spell isn't just how it affects the unit, but also how it affects the magic/dispel phase since they're autocast
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    Aenarion43 wrote:

    Unless they change the game so champions cannot be targeted when allocating attacks, that’s a Bad Idea. Even a Flame Warden champion dies if 6 empore spearmen take a whack at him. Considering how expensive bound spells would be......

    I doubt we’d be given IMPACTFUL bound spells. :/
    I wouldnt be opposed to that, with the exception of if the HBE player nominates him for a duel of course.
    Regardless, the advantage of a bound spell would come before the opportunity to kill him anyway. Besides that, look at the bigger picture, the advantage of a bound spell isn't just how it affects the unit, but also how it affects the magic/dispel phase since they're autocast
    The duel.jpg
    Failure is not an option.
  • @Fnarrr
    My leap in the discussion was based on a previous discussion on this very forum (20 ~30 pages ago :P )

    to cut a long story; I think the dragons to be celestial beings or something similar. So they're not lizards on "bane mode". I quite like the approach SE have with their treeman and would like HBE dragons to go that way. (not talking about baby drake RF here just to clarify)

    My original idea was to keep YD as amount (model validation etc) and make Dragon and AD similar to Treeman Ancient and Avatar. I envisage one of the dragons to be similar to DL caster (the monster caster - lust??) and other a fighter (probably won't go toe to to with the Wrath Damon but hold it in place a turn of two)

    despite being charecter entries these dragons would not be generals. (you know the AD is helping not necessarily leading the charge)

    So there; having individual dragon entry can help with magic strength implementation while adding to the army flavour and allowing dragons to fight more often...
  • AlexCat wrote:

    I really cant comprehand why would anyone be against sticking bound spells/wizard conclaves here and there in the army thats top3 in magic according to ASAW.
    If "its against the BG" that would just mean that right hand doesnt know what the left one is doing.
    Smaller part is due to background, larger part is due to design step scopes, which did not cover the needed level of change required to make it work and be viable and not atep on any toes nor be autoinclude not be buff instead of nerf nor be the smallest change possible nor be...argh, you get the picture, right?

    I think there is room for small background tweaks and large design leaps when the full rework on HE army book starts, but before that it will not be possible to do everything that needs to be done to align HE fully in the desired direction.
    Used to be a Vampire ABC member... then an Elf lass bit me... nowadays I have this insatiable craving for cheese, whine and fancy dresses... 8| The Dawn Host of ArchangelusM

    Army Design Team

    Draecarion, may the Lord grant eternal peace to your soul, my Friend!
  • ArchangelusM wrote:

    I think there is room for small background tweaks and large design leaps when the full rework on HE army book starts, but before that it will not be possible to do everything that needs to be done to align HE fully in the desired direction.
    Tread lightly my friend; words carefully chosen :) To even indirectly suggest that fluff will dictate what even a full rewrite will allow is dangerous. Remember my fellow High Wardens can not turn off the Flame even if it is for the greater good.
  • msu117 wrote:

    ArchangelusM wrote:

    I think there is room for small background tweaks and large design leaps when the full rework on HE army book starts, but before that it will not be possible to do everything that needs to be done to align HE fully in the desired direction.
    Tread lightly my friend; words carefully chosen :) To even indirectly suggest that fluff will dictate what even a full rewrite will allow is dangerous. Remember my fellow High Wardens can not turn off the Flame even if it is for the greater good.
    The rules representation of background and background are two very different beasta my friend. :D

    That is why I say that full rework is needed, as that is the only time when the changes implemented will be able to be of wide enough scope and without of differing requirements that are microfocused on particular issue and do not care about the wider book or design principles. :D
    Used to be a Vampire ABC member... then an Elf lass bit me... nowadays I have this insatiable craving for cheese, whine and fancy dresses... 8| The Dawn Host of ArchangelusM

    Army Design Team

    Draecarion, may the Lord grant eternal peace to your soul, my Friend!
  • Smaller part is due to background, larger part is due to design step scopes, which did not cover the needed level of change required to make it work and be viable and not atep on any toes nor be autoinclude not be buff instead of nerf nor be the smallest change possible nor be...argh, you get the picture, right


    I was talking only in the context of the full army book. That it was not possible during Hot fix updates I think was clear.
  • AlexCat wrote:

    Smaller part is due to background, larger part is due to design step scopes, which did not cover the needed level of change required to make it work and be viable and not atep on any toes nor be autoinclude not be buff instead of nerf nor be the smallest change possible nor be...argh, you get the picture, right
    I was talking only in the context of the full army book. That it was not possible during Hot fix updates I think was clear.
    What happened to our book during the February nerffix shows it was very possible... No offense, just bored to wait for better days.
    :HE: If you want to conquer the world, you best have dragons. The sky itself would dream of dragons.
    :SE_bw: Enter the woods if you think it's a game. In my forests, remember you are the game...
    :KoE: Fair fasce
  • AEnoriel wrote:

    AlexCat wrote:

    Smaller part is due to background, larger part is due to design step scopes, which did not cover the needed level of change required to make it work and be viable and not atep on any toes nor be autoinclude not be buff instead of nerf nor be the smallest change possible nor be...argh, you get the picture, right
    I was talking only in the context of the full army book. That it was not possible during Hot fix updates I think was clear.
    What happened to our book during the February nerffix shows it was very possible... No offense, just bored to wait for better days.
    Do what i did, buy some SE minis and jump to the green train.
    Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds- elf hero on foot 2016
  • Marcos24 wrote:

    I wouldnt be opposed to that, with the exception of if the HBE player nominates him for a duel of course.
    Regardless, the advantage of a bound spell would come before the opportunity to kill him anyway. Besides that, look at the bigger picture, the advantage of a bound spell isn't just how it affects the unit, but also how it affects the magic/dispel phase since they're autocast
    The question is, WHAT bound spells. IF it's something that our mages can use. . . well, it's kind of easy to guarantee it being cast with a real wizard honestly. Furthermore, if it's not a RELEVANT spell, then what's the point? For example, Sword Masters being able to cast Altered Sight is decidedly "meh" (as it's only relevant against a small number of armies). The Powers That Be are already quite okay with one of the "masters of magic" races being decidedly deficient in Path Access (having only 3 on mages and a 4th one ONLY behind a Paywall). Regardless, I'm fairly certain at least one RT member has axed this proposal under the current design guidelines for the book. To be fair, it makes little sense for champions to suddenly cast magic. What enables a Sword Master champion to suddenly be able to cast, when he's been pouring all of his stat points and skill points into "choppy choppy".

    I think that before we start talking about anything like this, we NEED to figure out what our book is going to be. . . and then the community decide if it's going to be onboard. Because I sure know that if I'm told "you get Gunline Highborn Elves and Shooting Avoidance Highborn Elves as your Army Builds and Playstyles", I might just peace out (definitely of the army, possibly of the project). Once a set of FUNCTIONAL design guidelines is set up for the Army book in a way that the community appreciates, THEN we can more forward. Unfortunately, as long as our book has weaknesses masquerading as strengths (Small Arms Fire), harsh weaknesses (toughness, numbers) with soft strengths (HEAVILY limited medium arms fire), and "opt in" strengths that aren't overall useful ("Dispelling Magic"), then we will never be able to move forward.

    Personally, I think that making a "full ASAW" for Dread Elves while making only a preliminary for SE and HbE (and a wrong one for HbE to boot) was a mistake. Granted, the HbE being a preliminary one let us raise our voices against it, but it would have been better had a preliminary one been done for EACH of them, run by their communities, and then fleshed out after getting approval. If I'm being honest, I'd vote to move the DE FAB down (as they are currently "in the promised land of Tier 2") in exchange for one of the "waiting for 10+ years book", and then do the next set as "Dwarven Holds" (since ID will be done now) and the three elf books simultaneously. Otherwise, whichever elf book ends up #3 (or even if #2 and #3 are done simultaneously) is going to be Up The Creek Without a Paddle.

    ArchangelusM wrote:

    That is why I say that full rework is needed, as that is the only time when the changes implemented will be able to be of wide enough scope and without of differing requirements that are microfocused on particular issue and do not care about the wider book or design principles. :D
    Hopefully the full rework goes better for us. . . . I'd hate to have stuff simply "axed" from the book under the excuse of "9th is its own thing". Unfortunately, more than one public comment has been made to this extent by a Person in Power. Is it a bad sign that I dread our book getting its FAB more than anticipate it (granted, it's like 60/40, but yah. The fact that "nuBook" isn't 100% hypetrain excitement is bad IMO)?

    N3okorrales wrote:

    Do what i did, buy some SE minis and jump to the green train.
    I'm thinking of getting on the Purple Train TBH. I like the style more (punchy punchy, ya!), and I've been told I look quite dashing in purple (Granted, by my wife, but I'm still counting it). Though I think that I'll look into both SE and DE as well as models for each and decide which I like best. Lord knows, I may just get like 1/3 of an army of DE and 1/3 of an army of SE, and then have the ability to play full on SE, HbE, or DE by mixing and matching. :)
    My army has rocks, papers, and scissors. The reason you lost this war is that you thought we were playing checkers at every battle. - Anon. Highborn Elf Prince.
    Highborn Master of the Infantry and aspiring Equitaininan Champion of the Lady.

    Playtester

    DL Army Community Support

  • I think Elves are a bit difficult to get right. GW in 6ed designed the HE and DE books together and they were quite flawed, and SE came last and it was a top book.
    Then in 7th GW released HE and then DE (if I remember correctly also designed together) and they were high-ish (HE) and top book (DE).

    The problem with Elves is that a race of long-lived magical elusive beings is a very vague guideline. From a background sense, being extraordinarily long lived and having a natural skill for magic leads to Overpowered pretty fast, and this is the reason why, for example, D&D Elves are a much toned down version of Tolkien Elves. Tolkien Elves would be like WDG combat plus SE shooting plus 8th WFB HE magic.

    Furthermore, Elf armies can (and have historically) competed in all phases of the game (sometimes being not good in combat, but eh), and it is difficult to be a master of magic a master of shooting and a master of combat. So the design has to be made pretty carefully, I would say.

    I think it would definitely be a good idea to design the ASAW for all 3 Elf armies at the same time.
    "They thought the Library was a dangerous place because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the simple fact that it was a library."
    Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!