Don't worry I almost felt down from my bed while reading your comment.I almost spit up my drink laughing. Furions list is trash -as I stated prior to this ETC.
“Scrubs” list is stellar, and close to what I would run in a highly competitive tourney right now.
It eats it on the cannon/gunline matchups depending on deployment.
However, even in those matchups you can turtle until your shooting
tries to eliminate interdiction. While those lists are only limited to
3-4 armies. Of which very little of those lists were featured.
High mobile elements with volumnious shooting, and counter charging
elements is a pseudo 1.3 list, and continues to capitalize what the book
is good at (even if it does suffer more polarizing matchups).
I personaly don't know any of those two players so my comment won't be distorted by personal complaints.
I'm not a fan of Furion or whatever, but when someone speak i try to understand what he/she says mostly when he is one of the best HE player.
Furion's list is better once you apply the changes i made in my list, which means :
- Bring Archers instead of Sea Guards. I perfectly understand that Furion's wanted to bring "fun" to his list as usual and play with the elements from the book that are marked as "non-competitive". Remember when he was the only foolish playing the Fire-phoenix with mounted high warden on it ... Where are people now ? "YEEEEAAAAAAH Fire-phoenix is awesome !"
- Bring more heavy shooting. 1 Sloop and 1 SGR seems not enought. Again look at the changes I made on my list. For points i sacrificed Divination for an OoFH mage with alchemy/pyro. It costs me less and allow me to bring heavy shooting. My 2 lore are ALWAYS adapted to the opponent. Divination is also a very good lore too, don't make me say what i didn't. As the 2 options seems very close, i chosed to one that cost less (logic).
My list is only Furion's one without the holy guacamole he puts inside for his personal reasons/challenge. It doesn't took me 4h to optimise his list.
Also, when taking an observation about the final result, don't forget all the external preasure the player as to face after :
- Saying out loud he is the best HE player.
- Doing ESC and ETC. (exhaust)
- Bringing non-competitive elements but trying to reach a level of play as high as if he brought competitive elements.
As it seems that I am saying bull****, you have to explain yourself and show me your great understanding of the HE AB.
So now take care of your drink and explain me HOW Scrubs' list is better than mine ? You have 3h
In order to help you a bit (because regarding your previous comment you will need it) : If I may be more precise explain me HOW :
- 2 Fire-Phoenixes are better than 1 Fire-Phoenix and 1 Dragon Prince. Hello dear Basalt Infusion/Dragonfire Gem.
- 2 blocs of spears, 20 archers and 6 rymas are better than 20 spears, 29 archers and 2 X 5 rymas. I have 2 fast scoring (almost immune to Pyro/Alchemy and light shooting) and more shooting.
- The BSB investment is justified. I only need 2 discipline banner for the "hold the line" role ... and I have Ld 10. That's possibly 200pts less at the end of the game.
- The magic investment is justified : Mage + BSB support. Yes, it's good, but is it fully optimised AND justified ? Hey this is 970pts
- The role of the Horse Prince is justified. Again, it's a good choice. But does it helps you managing the threat the army is already not able to manage ? He can be redirected.
- In order to protect your line 2 REAL chaff are better than 1 chaff and the sliver of the blazing tears.
I will not compare sloop VS SGR. Both choices are good and have their counterparts.
And we are only speaking about lists here and how they evolve on the board edge. No players skills and preferences are taken into account in this analysis.
If I’m being honest I’ve read this three times now and I’m still not sure if it’s the language barrier, or the leaps to connect two ideas, but I don’t understand much of what you’re trying to say/get at.
I’ll address what I do understand however:
No I don’t remember Furion taking Fire Warden FP. (Of which I’m not sure what this has to do with anything.)
What I do remember is pushing the x2 FP narrative, and their utility eating my words back when I was apart of the KoE ABC saying they were bad after minimal playtesting testing. After switching to playtesting HBE list variants for tournaments full time, and giving them a second chance at behest of my friends opinions in .9, and in 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2. I relented took my humble soup saying they were great instead.
What I do recall is him and few others here (jumping on the bandwagon, or agreeing with me eventually) around the same time period helping the forum to establish a “meta list.” Normalizing generic strategy game terminology, and list classification like “Protect the Castle” ala competetive TCG, and increasing the situational awareness on list particulars.
I could care what he (Furion or Vesy or you or Adam or whomever) has to say. I personally feel I know what is good, and bad in an army book (including this one) I don’t need someone else to validate those choices to me.
Understanding why someone took something, sythensizing their choices is helpful; taking a choice because a “good player” takes it and says it’s “good” is a yes man mentality, and pointless if it doesn’t fit your play style. However, taking a poor unit, and saying it’s “great,” and being unable to prove your claim is true keyboard crusade hubris if done in a manner of morally, or intellectually superior high ground.
Lastly I find this all ironic because if you’re changing his list “to make it better.” That in of itself should be enough to make his list not “elite” enough to be run by even casual HBE players.
This sounds pompous, but I didn’t look, nor I do I care to be frank Your list is just another list variant on Protect the Castle build.
Furthermore, I’m also not going to waste any time on some “challenge” trying to prove some logical fallacy based argument about list analysis.
Instead, I’ll sum it up in one statement: Scrubs list is better because it exacerbates what HBE are good at doing, and minimizes what they’re poor at doing.
Which he does/did better than Furion evidently (ala the last two ETC results), and lists.
Could we please avoid this thread becoming a penis-measuring-contest about toy soldiers? Thanks
Btw @Aglion I don't understand your remark that Archers > Sea Guard "mostly when you paid for a QC Prince". I thought the QC Prince is specifically there to boost both the SG's shooting (QtF, Moolight Arrows) and combat (SoBD) strength to acceptable levels. Archers can do a single job, SG can do both (you can argue they are garbage at both jobs or whatever, but Archers can't fight regardless).
I don't think Furion took SG only to show off as some seem to believe. That said, I don't think your choice of Archers is bad either. Neither your list is strictly superior to his list.
If you’re going to insinuate snide commentary at me at least be correct? I’m not measuring toy soldier superiority complexes. I’m commenting on the “toy solider riding” of some here, and why it’s simply uneducated to do so.
He didn’t take them to “show off” as I surmised, and asked about before this ETC. He truly thought they were better (which is baffling). So you are correct in that statement.
Ok, rather than getting into an argument amongst ourselves about whether a list is good, focus on constructive criticism of the list.
@Inkvizitor Maximilian no updates on the updates. As mentioned previously, this process won’t start til the fall at earliest.
On a separate note, I finished up my battle reports and recap from Buckeye Battles 2018 where I finished tied for 7th overall out of 96.
Check it out:
2.0 BETA Games- Buckeye Battles Game 5 and Wrap Up
I’ve already said what I thought of his list prior to the tournament. And with some of the “rumors” (that aren’t actually rumors) it’s not a wonder how some players finished as high as they did in both the ESC and ETC.
Mhm. And what if @Furion knew of this - and used the limited range and mediocre combat prowess of Seaguards as a trap - to have the enemy stretch into spots where he should not go?Sure I can explain.
I will try to sum up shortly in order to keep it readable :
- The range of archers is better. That's all ... More seriously : +6" doesn't seems important but they are one the less mobile unit of the list. Barely all the rest of the list can move and avoïd opponents threat. So 6" more is both : 6" range more for threating AND 6" range more for staying far from opponent. It means 1 more shooting phase per game VS infantry than SG.
- You don't want this unit to be in CC. You already have enough elements for managing CC threats. What you really need is a shooting role, and it is what the archers or sea guards bloc will do most of the time. Don't forget that you have a Mage to protect. Sure the Mage starts in spears unit for spliting zoning and for range reasons, but the last safe place you can place him is generaly archers.
Atleast that is what the game against Italy looked like - VC rushing the useless Seaguards only to find themselves with their foot in their mouth.