MrMossevig's newbie KoE blog

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    • MrMossevig's newbie KoE blog

      So,

      I've just got a little girl and decided to waste the time I'm rocking the cradle at five AM in the morning building an army. I used to have a very small undead/vampire counts army back in the days (around '00) but it was not enough to bother to pick up the pieces. Plus I remember being so tired of painting skeletons after finishing 3x20 of them so it was time for something a bit more colourful. So that's how I ended up here.

      For all practical purposes I'm a total newbie when it comes to wargaming so I thought I'd document my path here in case anyone else wants to start with KoE and need to answer the same questions I have answered myself.

      The stuff written here will probably not be of much interest for experienced players. But for anyone starting with KoE, or T9a in general, it should provide some helpful tips and show a lot of mistakes to avoid.

      Index
      After a couple of posts, I see that it's becoming hard to navigate. If any other newbiew are coming here to look at specific things here's the summary of posts:
      1. What to build? (Initial list for KoE)
      2. What to buy? (Review of available KoE models and a look on the Fireforge Knights)
      3. Painting the first models (And what to buy pt. 2: Paint)
      4. Building and painting the first actual KoE figures
      5. Painting Red and Yellow (f*** yellow)
      6. Painting Green and Blue (also cavalry painting tips)
      7. The Nuln Oil Spill
      8. Doing grass bases (review of basing options)
      9. Bows for Yeoman Outriders
      10. Sealing the models (varnish experiments)
      11. Good old Bretonnians hiding in the attic
      12. Painting Black and White (also Micro Set & Micro Scale + white paint review)
      13. Champion and Musician
      14. Fireforge Pegasus Knights Review
      15. Reaper Miniatures sneak peak
      16. Griffon + Unicorn = Hippogriff (Conversion guide)
      17. The Battle of Fredricksberg (2v2 1000pts battle report)
      18. Painting the Duke
      19. Grassland Bases with a Fence (And some reflections on different shine/anti-shine mediums)
      20. Old School Cool? (Building 5th edition Realm Knights as Grail Knights)
      21. Grail Knight Command (Lots of small conversion to metal figures)
      22. Mirliton miniatures (Helmets and Lady with Hunting Falcon)
      23. Norba Miniatures Trebuchet (Model review and wood painting technique exploration)
      24. The Massacre of Aschau and The Slaugther of River Gewache (3000 pts EoS battle report)
      25. More Kniggets More Powah (And how not to use Army Painter Anti-Shine)
      26. The Crusade of Fritziklan Islands (3000 pts WDG battle report)
      27. Talking to Commander Baumholz (3000 pts EoS battle pics)
      28. Killing the Alpha Carnosaur (3000 pts SA battle pics)
      29. Building a custom gaming table - Step 1: Woodworking
      30. Building a custom gaming table - Step 2: Landscaping
      31. Building a custom gaming table - Step 3: The paint job
      32. Building a custom gaming table - Step 4: The River
      33. Building a custom gaming table - Step 5: Static Grass and Finishing Touches
      What to build?

      So to the first question: What to build? As I'm starting out building an army without any knowledge of the rules I need some help and the forum turns out to be an excellent resource. I started this thread: KoE starter tips and with the help of @Klexe and @Sir_Sully I assembled a lovely cavalry only list. The all-cav suggestion actually came from @Klexe, as he interpreted my wish to get out of undead better than me. The list I will be building looks like this:

      - 14 Knights of the Realm (1×6 + 1×8 or 1x12)
      - 12 Knights Aspirant (2x5 or 2x6)
      - 10 Yeoman Outriders (2x5)
      - 4 Pegasus Knights
      - 8 Knights of the Grail
      - 2 Trebuchet
      - 1 mounted bsb
      - 1 Damsel
      - 1 Duke on Hippogriff

      As I also need to relearn my painting skills I need to start out with the easiest units to paint and move towards the more advanced ones, so the direction I will be painting these guys are:

      1. Yeoman Outriders (Getting those horse-skills up, also these can all be painted similarly so I can do a lot of trial an error)

      2. 6x Knights Aspirant and 8x Knights of the Realm. This allows me to get enough Core for a 2.5k/3k list if I decide to play that while building. This is where the painting will get turned up a notch to also involve different colours.

      3. 4x Pegasus Knights. Turning up the painting yet another level. Wings and more advanced heraldry.

      4. Duke on Hippogriff. Hope I'm ready for this now.

      5. 8 Knights of the Grail. Lots of detail on several models. After this I should have a playable army. Especially if the Yeomen can run as aspirants for the first games.

      6. 6x Knights Aspirant and 6x Knights of the Realm. The rest of the core.

      After this I have a couple of options as to whether I'll build the Damsel, bsb or Trebuchet first but we'll see when we get there.

      Stay tuned for next question, What to buy?

      PS. I have since read a couple of battle reports on all-cav armies, and they're not all encouraging in terms of how easy it will be to play such a list for a novice. If you're reading this and are thinking about going down the all-cav route you should seriously consider adding some Peasants so you're able to win. I'm not adding peasants, against my better judgement, just because I rather be painting knights than peasants.

      The post was edited 18 times, last by mrmossevig ().

    • Klexe wrote:

      plz many many pictures.
      I would actually start with 1 trebuchet.
      It is big. Easy to paint. Easy to try things and easy to paint over it.
      Also single models are quite good to start because you see the finish :)
      I'll do my best on the photos, thanks for the suggestion. Not a bad idea about the trebuchet.. The thing is that there's probably going to be a distinctive quality difference between the paint jobs of the first and last of my soldiers so I rather have the poorest painted being the poorest soldiers (Yeomen). As you see I have set up an order which allows me to paint/build something cooler every time I'm done with one unit. At least I find that rewarding, working towards the duke in this fashion, but others have to find out what feel rewarding for them. That being said I might move the trebuchet higher up on the list. It will also add a nice couple of points, so I can get to that 3k list faster.

      Klexe wrote:

      Btw which models from which company did you buy?
      That's the topic for the next post, but long story short: Fireforge.
    • What to buy?

      Having settled on a list, the next obvious question is where to get the models of all this? In T9A there's freedom to chose models from exactly which company you want and build the army to your own personal liking. But that freedom also comes with a lot of confusion for a newbie. Because there are so many options of suppliers and models, it is quite daunting to start out trying to acquire something.

      There's also the confusion of scale, or how big a model is: T9A is set in a 28mm scale, meaning that an average man should be 28 mm tall. However, some manufacturers (GW most pronounced) is using a so-called '28 mm heroic' scale, where weapons and horses are oversized for a dramatic effect. Using models of these different scales side-by-side might look funny, as this picture shows (Fireforge Mounted Sergeant on the left, GW high elven standard bearer on the right):


      Anyways, I started looking at different supplier as to where I could get models, and tried to sum it up in a short list. Note that these are only suppliers that I could find with decent core-units. There are other suppliers with excellent special units like Damsels and Trebuchets, for example norba, @Norbaminiatures. The scale is according to @Marcos24 that have studied this in greater detail than me, combined with a couple of google searches:

      • GW: Quite good looking, out of production, expensive. Style: "Cartoon-like". Scale: 28 mm Heroic.
      • Perry: Good looking, Cheap. Style: "Realistic". Scale: 28 mm Proper.
      • Game Zone: Very detailed, expensive, metal. Style. "Fantasy". Scale: 28 mm Heroic.
      • Mantic: Fine models, good price, not too much KoE models. Style: Close to GW. Scale: 28 mm Proper/Heroic. The internet disagrees on h
      • TMS: Hard to tell, seems to be OK price range and quite detailed. Not yet available. Scale: 28 mm Heroic.
      • Fireforge: Good detail level, quite cheap. Style: Close to GW but more realistic. Scale: 28 mm Proper.
      In the end the deciding factor for me was that I needed a place where it was easy to figure out what to buy. Fireforge have some really nice mounted sets that can be used for most of my knightly needs, and they have Pegasus knights, and even peasants if I ever decide to stoop so low. This would allow me build a consistent army relatively cheaply. Also, their models also get quite decent reviews across the internet.

      So I decided to buy the following:
      That should get me through steps 1-3 of my build plan. My goal is to order models for a step when I start on the preceding one, so I'll order the duke when I start building the Pegasus Knights.

      So what does these models look like?

      The bad first: They did a quite poor job of packaging the models up for shipping. The shipping package just looks like a sheet of cardboard wrapped around the box. Because the box itself has zero structural integrity, all the boxes arrived quite squashed. Luckily I have so far not found any broken pieces, but there are obvious signs of hard handling, like the bruise marks shown below. These are found regularly across the models, maybe a couple per sprue.

      Squashed boxes:


      Bruise marks:


      Mounting the horses is a breeze. For the unbarded horses I randomly picked two halves and combined them, and according to my horse interested SO the poses looks right. I did however not pair up the tail with the movement of the horse for the first couple of horses so I was forced to watch slow-motion gallop to make sure I got it right for the rest:

      youtube.com/watch?v=zQDAUv6d_KY

      I also replaced the bases with standard GW ones (ebay.com/itm/222109007515) and I cut up the standard Fireforge stand to make it blend more with the basing material later:


      For the soldiers themselves I like the amount of parts (body, two arms, head, shield) which gives a nice variation without too much work. Be careful when mounting the lance arm as it usually require some adjustment to make it point forward. If you just mount it in the default position it tends to point quite far to the right. Adjustment is quite easy, just find your favourite pair of clippers and cut the arm at an angle:


      I like all the heads, the arms and the shields. And all the bodies except for one. Three of the bodies have nice dynamic poses that are easy to make into a good looking model, but on every sprue there is one odd looking fellow that is leaning way to far back in the saddle and every time I use him I have a hard time figuring out how to make him fit in the saddle:


      Finished pic of a couple of Yeoman Outriders, more to come on this later:


      As this turned out to be a semi-review of the Fireforge models, I will also give a score, and it is: 8/10. Subtracting 1 point for the poor packaging and 1 point for the odd-looking fellow that I can never get to sit in a good way.

      Next up: Painting the first models (also What to buy pt. 2: Paint).

      The post was edited 2 times, last by mrmossevig ().

    • Marcos24 wrote:

      That seemed fast! Looking good
      Yeah, I might be cheating a bit. I ordered the sets early December and started painting just before Christmas, so the first couple of blog post will come fast, just writing down the lessons I've learned.
    • Painting the first models
      (And what to buy pt. 2: Paint)


      As you know from above I decided to start with the least expensive units (Yeoman Outriders) and work my way up from there. But even before that, I actually had two crash test dummies: A high elf standard bearer and a wood elf mage. These were the only two humanoid figures left in the local GW store, so I just took whatever while waiting for the Fireforge models to arrive:


      To get the color scheme right I had to repaint them both twice. But in the end I arrived at a satisfactory result. It's outlined at the bottom, but let's start with the basics: Paint and paint brushes.

      Paint and paint brushes

      To be fair, there are probably a lot of better paint systems out there than GW, especially the white paint sucks, but there is one thing that GW has going for it: Simplicity. It's easy to just order a couple of sets and you're ready to go. I bought the Citadel Essentials)with cutters, a brush and glue. I'm still torn whether I recommend it to others. It's nice to get cutters, a brush and glue, put the paint jars are not worth the plastic they're made of. They're barely filled and does not contain much paint. On the other hand you get a pair of decent cutters, a brush (which is actually my favorite brush) and glue. The Base Paint Set on the other hands contains good amounts of base paints, but is more expensive and you need to buy glue and cutters too.

      For painting a KoE army I really recommend the Layer Paint Set as it contains highlights for all the basic colors of Bretonnia heraldry (which I think is fine for KoE as well); Red, Yellow, Green, Blue, White and Black, as well as armour and flesh tones. I also bought the Shade Paint Set) but I think you can skip this one if you know what shades to buy, see the next posts for shades used.

      For brushes, as I said I really like the brush of the starter set. It seems to keep itself composed and has about the right size for most not-so-small details. I've also used the L Base Brush) from GW quite a lot for the big areas and the M Shade Brush that comes with the Shade set. Two other ones I used quite a lot is the Hobby Dry Brush from Army Painter and the Hobby Super Detail from the same company. I do not recommend the Hobby Super Detail, it deteriorates really fast. I've only highlighted 14 or so knights and it's now ready to be replaced both because the brush tip itself is no good and the metal end disconnected from the wood handle. They're both available from Fireforge Games.


      So, over to the actual painting. As I've stated earlier I started with something I did not care to much about, and I do recommend this strategy. I also spent quite a lot of time thinking about what style I want my army to be in? Worn down looking army, or an army in all it's splendour? Lots of small details that can be appreciated up close or something that looks good at a distance?

      I settled for a more 'used' army. An army that has seen combat before and are ready to see it again. Kinda like 'Band of Brothers' if they ever made a KoE series about it (Maybe that's GoT?). I also want to focus more on looking good from a distance so the shading are going to be exaggerated and I'm going to sacrifice small details to clean up the look from afar. I will also try to unify the army using same colored horses across the board and standardise on one army color for all the units that belong to the lord, like Yeomen, Trebuchets and maybe Grail Knights.

      The color of my Baron is 'Celeste' (the color of Bianchi bikes) so I picked up a Sybarite Green and a Baharroth Blue to create that color.

      Painting
      So, armed with the brushes, the paint and a plan I set out to paint the two immortal elves. First try was to just paint the layers, then wash the complete figure with black, before drybrushing with the highlight paint. I think I also actually added grey to the bottom of the barding. It is going to look dirty and used after all. It turned out so-so:


      So I tried to re-ignite the color by applying more edge paint:


      Still not there yet. It looks more like a badly painted model than a soldier in Baron's service. So I tried again. Repainted the model with Syabrite Green and didn't drybrush with pure Baharroth Blue. I rather drybrushed with a mix between the layer and highlight paints (50/50 Sybarite Green and Baharroth Blue) and then painted the edges of the model with Baharroth Blue:



      Good enough for me. I dropped the dirt on the barding in the end as I found it was hard to make it look good. Maybe someday when my painting skills are better. Notice that I've stripped the high elf of all the bling so that I can use him as a Paladin BSB for at least the first couple of games. The other colors are painted like this:

      Wood: Trying to make it look like yew: Mournfang Brown, then painted with Zandri Dust using a drybrush. It actually turns out better if the brown color does not cover everything, allowing black to show through the light top coat.

      Armor: Leadbelcher) washed with black shade and drybrushed with Runefang Steel. The last step does not really look like it does anything, but when you examine two models, with and without the drybrushing, it shows a real difference in how glowing the armor looks like.

      Leather: Mournfang Brown washed with black shade and highlighted using Zandri Dust.

      Face: Cadian Fleshtone washed with black shade and highlighted using Kislev Flesh. For highlighting I'm using the detail brush and just add three small drops of highlights on the nose and two chins. Fast and effective. The wood elf woman is shaded using Reikland Fleshshade but I find that they just end up looking red if I do that.

      Horse: Chaos Black Primer, washed with black, drybrushed with 2/3 Abaddon Black mixed with 1/3 Eshin Grey. Highlighted/Very lightly drybrushed with Eshin Grey.

      Horse markings (white): Screaming Skull, washed with black and drybrushed/Highlighted with 3/4 Ceramite White mixed with 1/4 Screaming Skull.

      As you see, most of this is washed with black shade, so to optimize I first paint the main color (Base, Wash, Drybrush), then I base all the secondary colors (Armor, Wood, Leather, Face), wash the secondary colors that needs to and drybrush them. I then hightlight all the colors in the end.

      The barded horses are exactly the same and the unbarded horses are mostly the same, except the horse color (black) is now the primary color and the shabrack is a secondary color.

      Before you paint you have to prime, and my weapon of choice here is the Chaos Black primer from GW. Using black gives the models a bit more gloomy look plus you can paint the horses (when using black horses) and armor easier, as they are already primed black.

      Woah! Long post.. Now breathe and wait for the first regiment: Yeoman Outriders.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by mrmossevig ().

    • Yeoman Outriders (From Fireforge Mounted Sergeants)

      So let's get it started in herre! Time to build some actual KoE figures. This post is a documentation of the procedure I've developed for myself and probably contain some stupid ideas, so if you're a more experienced painter reading this, please comment on things that could've been faster, smarter or easier.

      The Mounted Sergeants box contains 12 models so I started by building up 6 of them so I could finish it in two rounds. I wanted to give them all a consistent look so I opted for the helmets that looked approximately alike, the kettle helmets. At first I did not really have a plan on how they should look, charging, parading or whatever, so I just mounted the arms and bodies at random.

      What I did know is that they should look battle-worn, so I cut dents in all the helmets and shields to make sure it looks like they've seen combat before. This actually turned out to be a good way of making them look worn without being dirty/badly painted which was the problem with the grey on the barding on the high elf. I also cut down their lances, so they look more like sharpened sticks than proper lances. They are peasants after all:


      I decided to paint the shields separately which I think also was a good idea. Just left them in the sprue and primed the entire sprue and painted them there:

      Before the next round I figured that I actually only need 10 Yeomen (2x5) so I only had to do 4 more. This actually turned out to be a better number, as it was still enough to do rounds (one color is dried on the first model when you're done with the last), but with 6 knights it was too much painting before seeing the end result.

      Now I also understood that I only needed two regiments, so I opted for one charging and one with the lances slightly higher. So assigned the already painted models into two units, depending on their posture. It turned out that I did not have enough charging soldiers so I had to cut off the arms of two of the painted soldiers and reposition them. One was cut at the shoulder and one at the elbow. I also cut myself during this process. The two arms in question (you can see there is a seam at the elbow on the one at the right):


      For the Baron to be able to distinguish between them on the battlefield, I also gave them a banner each, one red and one blue. The red flag was actually added after the rest of the model was painted and it worked out fine, that too.


      The most converted guy is the leader of the 'charging' unit. I wanted him to look back at his fellow soldiers and command them into action, so I chose the body that had his right shoulder back. Unfortunately, trying to mount an outstretched lance arm on this body results in the lance pointing directly to the left. So I had to build up his shoulder using plastic scraps from the sprues and lots of glue. I just stuffed a lot of plastic pieces into the gap, and then trimmed it back down with a knife after the glue had dried. Notice the build-up on the shoulder:


      So to sum up the workflow I'm currently using:
      1) Assemble horses
      2) Prime horses
      3) Paint horses
      4) Assemble riders
      5) Prime riders
      6) Paint riders
      7) Apply transfers

      The 'paint' step is outlined in the previous post and I'll make sure to write a more thorough post on that later. The shields were mounted before the last round of highlighting so I could get them highlighted in line with the rest of the guy.

      For the horses I experimented with a lot of different options to make sure they look black but still have a proper amount of highlighting to bring out the contours. Painting it with pure Eshin Grey in a hope that the black would then sink into the creases and leave it highlighted was not a good idea. That turned the horse into a grey one. Also there was not much difference in washing it directly on the primer or painting it first (tried both black and almost-black (1:3 Eshin Grey:Black). So in the end the best procedure I could find for painting a black horse is:
      1) Prime it black
      2) Wash it black
      3) Drybrush with (1:3 Eshin Grey:Black)
      4) Drybrush lightly with Eshin Grey

      This seems to add the proper amount of details while still leaving the horse black.

      Transfers.
      Man I love transfers. I do not have the painting skills to make any type of details look good so using transfer was a really effective way of making them feel more knightly. The transfers here are bought from Ginfritters Gnomish Workshop . I wanted a lot of Fleur-de-Lis for my entire army so that's why I bought these full sheets.

      The procedure is not extremely easy, but with some experience you get the hang of it. Expect to ruin a couple of transfers in the process of learning. Cut them as close you can to the transfer and let them soak for a good minute (If you're doing multiple at a time, the first is usually ready when you're finished trimming the last). Pick them up with a brush and place them on the finger of your hand holding the miniature. I used the Super Fine Detail brush for the small transfers and the starter brush for the shields. Then slide them onto the brush and place them using the brush. Remember to vet the figure first so you have some time to reposition it. Then press down with a paper towel to remove the extra water and fix it in place.

      Applying the big transfers to the shields, holding the dude with my left hand and the brush with my right (the guy already has a transfer, the pic was only to show how I was holding the guy):


      The small transfers for the robes:


      It does add some shine to the shield so I'm going to be looking at ways of reducing that shine going forward. After this I painted the dents in the shields with black and added a bit of Administrative Grey to the middle of the transfers. This helps to tone down the white and make them more realistic:


      Almost finished Yeomen:



      The next steps is that I want to add cavalry bows, so I bought these and these guys from Essex Miniatures. I'll post an update when those are added and the bases completed:

      Next stop: Painting the first real knights.

      The post was edited 4 times, last by mrmossevig ().

    • Marcos24 wrote:

      Nice! Looking good, I might need some transfers like that too
      Yeah, those are great.

      One thing that I forgot to mention is that I also did an experiment on using colored shader versus black. And the short summary is that it's very hard to tell the difference between them in the end. The one on the left is using black shader and the one on the left is using blue. I had a hard time actually figuring out which is which for the purposes of this picture. You CAN distinguish them up close but from any distance black is equally fine.


      Note the shine in the wash. I have to kill that somehow.