Why I stopped playing T9A

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  • Borjnfer Wraith wrote:

    I am not attacking anyone personally here DanT, merely stating my opinion of what I and others are feeling on the current state of affairs. It seems that the current system ignores the community at large. It feels like it is stagnating into a dysfunctional dry gaming experience. Not fun nor enticing.It is my goal to re-juvinate the project, positively. If that means changing the way things are currently done then so be it.
    We no longer will abide by mediocre production. We want this to succeed, but we don't feel successful at this point in time by what has been produced under the current system.
    We need change, and we need it soon. And if it takes shock therapy to get it done then so be it.
    If you want to take responsibility for what we are being shoved then, as my dad used to say, "If the shoe fits wear it".
    But I think it is a lot more than you, but rather a discrete few that think they know it all and we, the community at large, will just have to accept the gruel they meter out to us.
    This system has run its' course. We do not, by and large, agree with its benevolence. We seek a new course, and we seek it now.
    T9A is not going to be abandoned or commandeered, but rather saved by the community at large, as it should be. will it be chaotic? For sure! But it will work itself out and more fun will be had by all ;) You sir are appreciated. And it is my dearest hope that you will be joining the Community-at-large with your wonderful ideas and advice, where I hope it can come to fruition.
    I am not taking it as a personal attack.
    Nonetheless, I feel you should address what I am saying.
    I am 20% of the voting membership of RT. So if not me then to whom are you referring with this "discrete few"?

    "The community at large" is not the homogeneous mass you are supposing. You ask 100 gamers a question and you will get 101 different answers. Trust me, its a gorram minefield to navigate.
    I work really hard to consider different points of view, and actively search out different perspectives on and off the forum, so I find it quite arrogant of you to assume that you can speak for the global community with some of your statements.

    There are people that agree with you of course, and I am not claiming that things are perfect.
    I have stated before that the broader the amount of people we cater for, the less perfect the game is for any of those individuals.
    This is a constant tug of war that is played out internally on a daily basis.

    I personally advocate for a broad church approach, but that means that for everyone there will something in every update that they don't like.
    Ask not what the project can do for you, but what you can do for the project :)

    Don't forget that however convinced you are of your opinion on something in the project, or something it should/shouldn't do, there is someone out there holding on to the opposite belief just as strongly :D

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  • "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. "

    I agree, I do not believe that there a "mass" of people who want to abandon ship. More like a vocal group of <10.

    IF I'm wrong, and there IS a large group of like-minded individuals, who are better at writing rules than the current group, and are willing to put in the hundreds (if not thousands) of hours of writing and discussion, then why are they waiting till now? Why haven't they gotten on board with the project already? They've just been sitting on all of that talent and insight? Holding back their contributions because they want to be the ones calling the shots?
    "The old wisdom born out of the west was forsaken. Kings made tombs more splendid than the houses of the living, and counted the old names of their descent dearer than the names of their sons. Childless lords sat in aged halls musing on heraldry, or in high cold towers asking questions of the stars.”

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  • Kasocles wrote:

    What is wrong with the old to-wound table? It was clear as water to me. Just compare to values and bam you have the answer. Surely any modifiers like +1 to-wound can't make this difficult. It ain't algebra.

    And after a while you realize there is simple math behind it. One point higher strength than the opponents resilience is 3+, two points higher is 2+, and the other way around is 5+ and 6+.
    Yes, it's simple. But it's broken. And the fixes for the most important table in the game being broken add a massive amount of problems and complexity
  • I applaud the sentiment that t9A ‘warrior staff’ be honored, but at the same time detest the oversimplification implicit in the post.

    Criticism has its place, but like design it is not just something everyone can do well. Great critiques, like brilliant design, are crafted from deep knowledge, embarrassing failure, sudden insight, and patient refining.

    Thus to the critics I say: do not kill the tree with your sharp pruning, and to designers: keep a sharp eye for those flecks of gold while getting ‘panned’. :P
    <3 Stepping down to focus on the latest addition to the family! Three kids means we now form a complete rank! <3

    The post was edited 1 time, last by There Is No Spoon ().

  • Wstanley wrote:

    who are better at writing rules than the current group
    It is not the point. The point is rules writing philosophy not lack of skills. Or a kind of tunnel vision that led to situation when there is no actual RuleBook for the game but rather Game Documentation. A result of the fact that people who write the rules with each iteration had deeper knowledge of the game mechanics and lost the ability to care for rules clarity or logical structure. They have become too skilled for that. They know where to look for things, how to look for them, how to read them. But it is not something intuitive but a learned skill, common for designers and those who play 5-10 games a month. To learn it you have to play 20+ games. Starting with spending 5-7 hours on first games.

    WFB is called 'a game of toysoldiers too expensive to play'. Entrance barrier of 50-80 miniatures to start playing killed the game. Too few people had enough dedication to purchase & assemble basic army to have first games (let alone paint it). We have added to that another barrier. You have to prepare 60-100 miniatures and then you can start learning how to play. If you spend 80+ hours on that you will be able to enjoy our game...
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  • DanT wrote:

    Borjnfer Wraith wrote:

    I am not attacking anyone personally here DanT, merely stating my opinion of what I and others are feeling on the current state of affairs. It seems that the current system ignores the community at large. It feels like it is stagnating into a dysfunctional dry gaming experience. Not fun nor enticing.It is my goal to re-juvinate the project, positively. If that means changing the way things are currently done then so be it.
    We no longer will abide by mediocre production. We want this to succeed, but we don't feel successful at this point in time by what has been produced under the current system.
    We need change, and we need it soon. And if it takes shock therapy to get it done then so be it.
    If you want to take responsibility for what we are being shoved then, as my dad used to say, "If the shoe fits wear it".
    But I think it is a lot more than you, but rather a discrete few that think they know it all and we, the community at large, will just have to accept the gruel they meter out to us.
    This system has run its' course. We do not, by and large, agree with its benevolence. We seek a new course, and we seek it now.
    T9A is not going to be abandoned or commandeered, but rather saved by the community at large, as it should be. will it be chaotic? For sure! But it will work itself out and more fun will be had by all ;) You sir are appreciated. And it is my dearest hope that you will be joining the Community-at-large with your wonderful ideas and advice, where I hope it can come to fruition.
    I am not taking it as a personal attack.Nonetheless, I feel you should address what I am saying.
    I am 20% of the voting membership of RT. So if not me then to whom are you referring with this "discrete few"?

    "The community at large" is not the homogeneous mass you are supposing. You ask 100 gamers a question and you will get 101 different answers. Trust me, its a gorram minefield to navigate.
    I work really hard to consider different points of view, and actively search out different perspectives on and off the forum, so I find it quite arrogant of you to assume that you can speak for the global community with some of your statements.

    There are people that agree with you of course, and I am not claiming that things are perfect.
    I have stated before that the broader the amount of people we cater for, the less perfect the game is for any of those individuals.
    This is a constant tug of war that is played out internally on a daily basis.

    I personally advocate for a broad church approach, but that means that for everyone there will something in every update that they don't like.
    Sorry to tread on your toes Sir. But From what I have seen, And I have seen much, I can not abide the current path of destruction I perceive. I really want to see This project become better, and this system just ain't on the right course in my eyes. If my choice is to quietly follow the current program come what may, or jump into a pool of Gorrams and see what else emerges, then I will join the Gorrams and trust to the greater pool of experiences, wants, and desires of the masses.
    As to your feelings that I am an arrogant person, I can assure you that I am far from that. I am a perceptive person with only the best of wishes for everyone and the complete success of this project. I am in no way seeking any kind of control either. The community will decide who is best to coordinate this new direction I propose for getting things done. I understand that this is not yet a popular idea here. But with time, and good leadership I have high hopes and expectations it has a good chance for success. The Gorrums are not as un-intelligent as some in the Ivory Tower seems to think we are.
    If the teams would just have listened to the Gorrams and worked on what they asked for I would not be going in the direction I am now, but NOOOO, they had to mess with this, that and the other thing, (Mostly nurffing them) instead. Just how much more of this did you think we would put up with?
    I don't want to quit! I wan't to make it better as was intended. You know it isn't working well, you admit it.
    When doing the same thing over and over again only makes the product worse, then we are the very definition of insane. And only self-destruction is in our future.
    Time for a change.
    I am proposing a vote of "No Confidence" in the current governance of the T9A project.

    And If you want to continue to attack me, I propose we go to the private message format.
    Failure is not an option.
  • DanT wrote:

    Borjnfer Wraith wrote:

    I am not attacking anyone personally here DanT, merely stating my opinion of what I and others are feeling on the current state of affairs. It seems that the current system ignores the community at large. It feels like it is stagnating into a dysfunctional dry gaming experience. Not fun nor enticing.It is my goal to re-juvinate the project, positively. If that means changing the way things are currently done then so be it.
    We no longer will abide by mediocre production. We want this to succeed, but we don't feel successful at this point in time by what has been produced under the current system.
    We need change, and we need it soon. And if it takes shock therapy to get it done then so be it.
    If you want to take responsibility for what we are being shoved then, as my dad used to say, "If the shoe fits wear it".
    But I think it is a lot more than you, but rather a discrete few that think they know it all and we, the community at large, will just have to accept the gruel they meter out to us.
    This system has run its' course. We do not, by and large, agree with its benevolence. We seek a new course, and we seek it now.
    T9A is not going to be abandoned or commandeered, but rather saved by the community at large, as it should be. will it be chaotic? For sure! But it will work itself out and more fun will be had by all ;) You sir are appreciated. And it is my dearest hope that you will be joining the Community-at-large with your wonderful ideas and advice, where I hope it can come to fruition.
    I am not taking it as a personal attack.Nonetheless, I feel you should address what I am saying.
    I am 20% of the voting membership of RT. So if not me then to whom are you referring with this "discrete few"?

    "The community at large" is not the homogeneous mass you are supposing. You ask 100 gamers a question and you will get 101 different answers. Trust me, its a gorram minefield to navigate.
    I work really hard to consider different points of view, and actively search out different perspectives on and off the forum, so I find it quite arrogant of you to assume that you can speak for the global community with some of your statements.

    There are people that agree with you of course, and I am not claiming that things are perfect.
    I have stated before that the broader the amount of people we cater for, the less perfect the game is for any of those individuals.
    This is a constant tug of war that is played out internally on a daily basis.

    I personally advocate for a broad church approach, but that means that for everyone there will something in every update that they don't like.

    20% of the RT and 0% of the BLT, and costing can frustrate quite a lot of people

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  • I’d like to remind everyone of the original OP of this topic and that we have drifted far from that point
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  • @Borjnfer Wraith
    I apologise if you perceived this as an attack. And it makes me sad that you see me as part of the problem.

    It seems to me though that what you are really saying is "this is not the game for me, so I want to make my own, and there are some people who want similar things to what I plan to put into my game".
    To which I say "kudos, good luck with that, I hope you achieve what you desire, let me know when you have done it and I will have a read" :thumbup:

    It will be interesting to see how much of the global community gets on board with your game, and to see the difference in demographic between those who choose your game and those who choose t9a.


    WhammeWhamme wrote:

    20% of the RT and 0% of the BLT, and costing can frustrate quite a lot of people
    I was on BLT previously....But that aside, I understood the post I responded to be objecting to far more than just pricing.


    I was more just trying to point out that people like to object to the "people in the shadows" or "the project" as some sort of monolithic corporate group think alliance, which is manifestly not true: it is ultimately a small group of individuals, who argue a lot amongst themselves.
    Slinging mud at "t9a plc", is not really a meaningful thing.
    Ask not what the project can do for you, but what you can do for the project :)

    Don't forget that however convinced you are of your opinion on something in the project, or something it should/shouldn't do, there is someone out there holding on to the opposite belief just as strongly :D

    Check out my new ID blog
    Dan ventures into the lands of smoke and fire

    And some basic tactics for beginners (I should develop this properly at some point)
    No 'tactics for beginners' thread?
  • Warboss_R wrote:

    Kasocles wrote:

    What is wrong with the old to-wound table? It was clear as water to me. Just compare to values and bam you have the answer. Surely any modifiers like +1 to-wound can't make this difficult. It ain't algebra.

    And after a while you realize there is simple math behind it. One point higher strength than the opponents resilience is 3+, two points higher is 2+, and the other way around is 5+ and 6+.
    Yes, it's simple. But it's broken. And the fixes for the most important table in the game being broken add a massive amount of problems and complexity
    What's broken about it and what problems does it add that need solving?
  • Borjnfer Wraith wrote:

    I really want to see This project become better, and this system just ain't on the right course in my eyes
    This is the underlying issue. There are thousands of community members each with their own vision of what they want to project / game to be. It's impossible to please everyone. I'm not jaded about this, far from it. But it took me some time to really process this issue. No decision can be characterized as "right" or "wrong" until you determine where you are going. Only then can you determine if the decision takes you closer to your destination or not. This issue of having more readable rules in the BRB is a good example. What is the goal here? To provide tight rules that require little to no FAQ, or a set of rules that read more like a novel but are less precise? Well, one of the top considerations of the project was to make rules that were 1) very clear, and 2) as concise as practical without compromising clarity. So, in determining what is a "right" or "wrong" decision, we need to determine if we can clarify the rules more and make them more concise. But moving to make them more readable at the expense of clarity would move us further away from our goal. If we can make them more readable while not compromising our goal, all the better.

    So @Borjnfer Wraith I have to say that I understand you have a personal vision for the project, but I can guarantee that your personal vision conflicts with someone else's personal vision on this thread. How do we determine who is "right"? We have to look to the guys that started this project in the summer of 2015 and set all this up as well as the staff members that have been tapped by those original guys to help set the course of the project.

    I'm not saying this to shut down input, but I trying to help explain the tension all over the project. Keep in mind that there are those in high management positions that do care very much what the community thinks and try their best to concepts and ideas from the community incorporated into the game. ACS have been set up to do this. @DanT is also one of those guys. Most of the red tags you see posting on the open boards are part of those guys.
  • for the record: I dont have an underlying problem mr Owl. I think 9th Age rocks the show. Big time. I just wish the rulebook is improved. I hear alot of negative feedback on around me. And I start reading and I see what people mean. I check who's in charge and see they are mostly not native speakers So I post about it. Get some tracktion, also from the people actually in charge of rules clarification. Good motion.
    Booooooaaaaaarsssss .... Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge !!!
  • Couple things:

    1. This is a *Game* for (expensive) *toy* soldiers (Spin it any way you want, it is what it is). So lets step back and take a breather here and cool our heads
    2. I 100% welcome *constructive* criticism
    3. It is easy to call the shots when sitting in the stands - You don't want to see me watch sports because I am super guilty of this.
    4. We have a process for people joining the team - All that is really asked is that you put in the work, play nice with others, and understand that you will not always get your way (As @Mr.Owl said, what you think is best, is not always what everyone else thinks is best, so you have to work WITH the team)
    5. There is no Ivory Tower - The fact that we have Advisory board members from the very top discussing on this thread goes to show how that is laughable. For all its faults - this game is the furthest thing from Ivory Tower elite looking down on common peasantry.
    6. Just because what YOU want isn't listened to, doesn't mean that *no one* is listened to. Again, we can't make everyone happy, but we seriously work hard to implement ideas from the community (I saw the ACS tickets, there was so much discussion about community input and design)
    7. Volunteer. Don't get mad, get involved. Show up with a pro-teamwork attitude and be understanding of different opinions, and you can make some impact on the design and philosophy. Not sure of it? Write it up and stick it in the homebrew section and see how the community feels!
    8. BE SPECIFIC in your criticism. There is a lot of text, scattered across 18 documents (16 AB's, 1 BRB, 1 PoM) The champion rules are a great example. The more specific, the easier it is for us to meet your expectations (or move the game closer to them!)

    As far as rules clarity is concerned - I think it was mentioned earlier but I'll stress it again - We can improve memorization without actually altering the rules of the game by re-arranging and changing the layout. Walls of text need to be broken up (moved into columns!) more diagrams inserted (some people just have pictures stick in their minds better). I think this should be a major goal of 205 - rewriting? No, we're mostly done there. Lets make sure the text is now arranged and laid out in a manner that optimizes ease of memorization for more people.

    Edit: I would be willing to bet 50$ That if we moved the BRB into columns, complaints of complexity would drop simply by a change in aesthetics - No other changes, just moving it into columns.

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    "...take a step back and remember that we are playing a game where we roll dice and move little people around the board."

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  • Pellegrim wrote:

    I thought that was kinda funny - needed to get that of your chest?
    I wanted to help with the release of fluff and clarity of the rules - so I joined the Lectoring team.

    If you want to help, and are fully aware that you can't always get what you want (But you may just find you get what you need) - then apply!
    If you can't make that dedication, but still want to roll up your sleeves - write up what you want and stick it in the homebrew! People look there all the time!

    This entire project only functions on teamwork - separate Emphasis on TEAM and WORK. It is not a dictatorship - no one has time to be a dictator here! amirite @Giladis :D

    Head of Lectors

    Quick Starter Team

    "...take a step back and remember that we are playing a game where we roll dice and move little people around the board."

    - Grouchy Badger

  • Trust me I put the hours in T9A. I organise the biggest tourny in my country.

    Think you need to understand that while you might stand open for suggestions, which I applaud - others clearly dont and throw out hardliner reactions. There is nothing more annoying (and unconstructive).

    And no I can not apply. Cause the ones that can write good rules are native speakers preferably with writing experience. And lack both. I would offer myself to be a proof reader. Heck sure I can find the extra hours.
    Booooooaaaaaarsssss .... Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge !!!