WDG book 2.0 discussion

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  • Krokz wrote:

    Yes, not all army strengths are implemented the same way. Speed for WDG means something different than for KoE. KoE has everything fast, while WDG has slow mainstay/core and some extremely fast choices outside that. Daemons have Speed as strength very similar to WDG.

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Could anyone direct me where I could find Background about magic lores available to WODG?
    FAB? Or read Paths of Magic book fluff and you can relate it to WDG.Occultism is primary WDG path because it is strong and devastating spells path. Like armies that have small spells strength (Ogre for example) have Pyromancy.
    Alchemy deals with studying material plane, it is why Daemons do not have it for example. Perfect for someone like a Sorcerer who is close to Daemons to study material plane for them.
    Evocations deals with souls, theme that is very strong in WDG due to Warriors making pacts with Daemons, selling their souls to them.

    Thaumaturgy is primary a Barbarian path, if we would have Barbarian caster like ADT wanted he would have it. Sorcerers do not have Thauma, because their relation to Dark Gods is different from that of worshipers.

    Access to paths do not make the army better or worse, point costs do that. Which paths you have access to gives you character, flavor.
    2 Questions then:
    1) Thaumaturgy have literary the biggest devastating spell in the game (wrath of god) and ogres (who has small spell strength) have access to it? Don't you find it to be quite weird?

    2) ADT wanted barb caster - why he didn't made it? For book about warriors we have quite a lot of barbarian stuff, barb chief for example was nerfed into the ground anyway.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - passion project for the future
  • Happy Aspid wrote:

    2 Questions then:
    1) Thaumaturgy have literary the biggest devastating spell in the game (wrath of god) and ogres (who has small spell strength) have access to it? Don't you find it to be quite weird?

    2) ADT wanted barb caster - why he didn't made it? For book about warriors we have quite a lot of barbarian stuff, barb chief for example was nerfed into the ground anyway.
    1) Occultism is better at big and devastating spells. And as I said, Sorcerers secret pact with the Dark Gods prevents them from heaving it, it is BGT related

    2) Because this is a Warrior book. Executives did not want more Barbarian entries than there already are. From RT point of view we would probably not be allowed to have 4 or even more Path access to begin with, because that is only for armies with strong magic theme and WDG is not one of them. We are allowed three and a half.
    Personally, if you are not a tournament player I see no problem heaving an Asklander caster with your WDG army. Rules are there to create a frame for you to play, since it is a table top game you can do what ever you want to have fun. Like D&D.
    Army Design Team. :WDG: :EoS: :OK: :KoE:
  • Krokz wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    2 Questions then:
    1) Thaumaturgy have literary the biggest devastating spell in the game (wrath of god) and ogres (who has small spell strength) have access to it? Don't you find it to be quite weird?

    2) ADT wanted barb caster - why he didn't made it? For book about warriors we have quite a lot of barbarian stuff, barb chief for example was nerfed into the ground anyway.
    1) Occultism is better at big and devastating spells. And as I said, Sorcerers secret pact with the Dark Gods prevents them from heaving it, it is BGT related
    2) Because this is a Warrior book. Executives did not want more Barbarian entries than there already are. From RT point of view we would probably not be allowed to have 4 or even more Path access to begin with, because that is only for armies with strong magic theme and WDG is not one of them. We are allowed three and a half.
    Personally, if you are not a tournament player I see no problem heaving an Asklander caster with your WDG. Rules are there to create a frame for you to play what ever you want. Like D&D.
    "Power and Knowledge — The traditions of Divination, Thaumaturgy and Occultism seek their strengthbeyond the confines of this world".
    Where I can find info about this pact? For there are nothing about it in Paths of Magic, and none in warriors book.

    PS: Unfortunatelly - i am tournament player, and majority of players in my region play in tournaments too. So it is hard to find a person who would want to waste an opportunity to play a game that will not help him even in a slightest to taste what he can actually encounter at tournament.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - passion project for the future
  • Warboss_R'ok wrote:

    zulu wrote:

    yeah sorry typo, meant pyromancy
    Yeah, pyromancy would be nice to have.
    I feel like the magic choices for WDG are very strange. WDG lack shooting so we need tools to deal with things you need to shoot.

    And yet we get evocation and occultism.

    ??? :S
    Magic paths are supposed to help armies do what they already do better, not be used to do what the rest of the force can’t.

    In the Warriors faction.

    Maybe that WILL be the case after all the other armies are fully 2.0’d and Warriors aren’t the only army that has had that treatment, but I doubt it. Thay’s the price you pay when you’re the prototype.

    Palmu wrote:

    The BGT hardly cares about whats mechanically good, only about what fits the background best.

    That said, Occultism would be great if it had more range and was less punishing to use.
    And of course the background can be written to be anything, so this argument immediately falls apart.

    ie if Warriors were given Pyromancy then the Warriors wizards can easily be given a line of text explaining their tribal nature, etc.

    Limitations to lores are balance based. This entire project is “balance based”. The Background excuse is a circular argument that applies to one faction.

    Echunia wrote:

    Palmu wrote:

    The BGT hardly cares about whats mechanically good, only about what fits the background best.

    That said, Occultism would be great if it had more range and was less punishing to use.
    Not to be a negative nancy but I remember that one of the main discussions during the unification and culling of all the paths was that the top brass disliked the idea that magic was almost always used to shore up inherent weaknesses in armies. As such armies that had weakness in chaff clearing shouldn't be allowed access to chaff clearing paths. The specific example of this was WotDG not getting access to pyromancy. The background was then published to support this (Although alchemy makes little sense to be honest).
    I know we now a days base a lot of design decisions on the background, which is good. But we shouldn't forget that a lot of the background is the way it is based on previous gameplay decisions.

    Yep. And other armies of course have access to Lores based on old Warhammer fluff (like ID having access to both Pyromancy and Alchemy where only Alchemy fits according to the new fluff concepts, but taking that away will cause extreme displeasure in the community).
  • Krokz wrote:

    Evocations deals with souls, theme that is very strong in WDG due to Warriors making pacts with Daemons, selling their souls to them.
    But true reason for Evocation was different :saint:
    Too many armies had access to Shamanism, so it was decided to remove it from WDG Sorcerer :thumbdown:
    It's sad that EH cannot get access to Divination from similar reason (one of other armies could lose access to it), while SE are forced to have it (due to Forest Spirits) :no:

    Shane wrote:

    And of course the background can be written to be anything, so this argument immediately falls apart.

    ie if Warriors were given Pyromancy then the Warriors wizards can easily be given a line of text explaining their tribal nature, etc.
    But isn't Background untouchable? ?(
    At least I got such impression ||
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Armywide Signature Spells - Check! Maybe you could add something more? Success! We got Hereditary Spells!
  • Altao wrote:

    Krokz wrote:

    Evocations deals with souls, theme that is very strong in WDG due to Warriors making pacts with Daemons, selling their souls to them.
    But true reason for Evocation was different :saint: Too many armies had access to Shamanism, so it was decided to remove it from WDG Sorcerer :thumbdown:
    It's sad that EH cannot get access to Divination from similar reason (one of other armies could lose access to it), while SE are forced to have it (due to Forest Spirits) :no:

    Shane wrote:

    And of course the background can be written to be anything, so this argument immediately falls apart.

    ie if Warriors were given Pyromancy then the Warriors wizards can easily be given a line of text explaining their tribal nature, etc.
    But isn't Background untouchable? ?( At least I got such impression ||
    @Shane but fading gray isn’t more funny.
  • Laurfelt wrote:

    I thought the whole concept of strict army strengths and weaknesses had been abandonned long ago since it did nothing good for creating fun and balanced armies?

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    Implementation of ASAW was a failure because it contradicted other restrictions as well as complexity budget that managed to do everything even harder. Unfortunately I never seen confirmation of it's abandonment.
    My personal opinion about the whole ASAW mess as a former desginer:

    ASAW are something great, if they are done well (which I still find the case for WDG) and especially the designers get the room to do whatever they want as long as it is within the ASAW and the theme of the army. Heck, I really liked the core design of the 2.01 version, since it did exactly what it should: go to extremes with the ASAW, design stuff which has not been done before and approach this task in a unique way.

    However, I still didn't like the endresult, since I knew what had to be cut, which is a shame (if I would tell you guys from all those cool things, you would either rage or whine XD ).



    Since there was the statement from @Palmu about the SE match-up, under 1.0 and 1.3 I never lost to them (10ish games overall), Manti Lords and EDC (1.0) and a way better MSU concept and execution (1.3) did wonders on this end. Though, under 1.0 the MSU concept was even worse, cause the threat of Pyro back than was gross (though, Heaven was even more bonkers for WDG ^^ ).

    Nowadays I have no idea, have not gotten enough games in vs SE and those lists I played went either 18-2 or 2-18 against SE.


    Btw. @Altao, Shamanism got cut, since it didn't fit in the first place. The Sorcs are not Barb Shamans, but Warrior Sorcs and thus have a vastly different approach to magic. Hence, Evo was a way better fit than Shamanism. Though, as @Krokz mentioned it, Thraumaturgy and Shamanism would have been a slam dunk for a Barb Sorcerer.


    Also, @Palmu :girlrouch:

    Greetings,
    Kathal
    "When four Kings abdicate their thrones, do you really have a Kingdom anymore?"

    I kind have a "blog" now: From Beer and Bretzle vol 2

    ETC 2016 - ID
    ETC 2017 - WDG
    ETC 2018 - ID
  • Yeah the only reason barbarian shamans don't exist is due to the "only a certain number of paths per army", which is essentially "three and a half" for WDG. We had Shamanism early on, I'm pretty sure, but then it was swapped to Evocation due to background business or some other reason that I can't remember.

    God I wish we had Totemic Beasts or Insect Swarm. I'd throw Evocation out of the window any day, even if it has those delicious re-roll buffs.
  • Palmu wrote:

    Yeah the only reason barbarian shamans don't exist is due to the "only a certain number of paths per army", which is essentially "three and a half" for WDG. We had Shamanism early on, I'm pretty sure, but then it was swapped to Evocation due to background business or some other reason that I can't remember.
    It was swapped over, cause you guys wanted to do it (BGT was basically the line of "Evo would fit slightly better, but Shamanism works too cause of the Barb subtheme) :P

    I could even dig out the discussion about this, but I have no access rights anymore :P

    Palmu wrote:

    God I wish we had Totemic Beasts or Insect Swarm. I'd throw Evocation out of the window any day, even if it has those delicious re-roll buffs.
    That Shamansim has 3 of the best spells for the army (Awaken, Broken Break the Spirit ( ;) ) and Chilling Howl) is one thing, but I still rate Evo above it due to the Snipes, the re-rolls and the movement spell.

    Greetings,
    Kathal
    "When four Kings abdicate their thrones, do you really have a Kingdom anymore?"

    I kind have a "blog" now: From Beer and Bretzle vol 2

    ETC 2016 - ID
    ETC 2017 - WDG
    ETC 2018 - ID
  • Kathal wrote:

    ASAW are something great, if they are done well (which I still find the case for WDG) and especially the designers get the room to do whatever they want as long as it is within the ASAW and the theme of the army. Heck, I really liked the core design of the 2.01 version, since it did exactly what it should: go to extremes with the ASAW, design stuff which has not been done before and approach this task in a unique way.
    Fully agree!
    <3 Stepping down to focus on the latest addition to the family! Three kids means we now form a complete rank! <3
  • Kathal wrote:

    It was swapped over, cause you guys wanted to do it (BGT was basically the line of "Evo would fit slightly better, but Shamanism works too cause of the Barb subtheme) :P
    I could even dig out the discussion about this, but I have no access rights anymore :P
    We did? Past Me is an absolute retard, but I was already aware of that. This must have happened during the time while I was basically mentally AWOL due to irl stuff.
  • Kathal wrote:

    The Sorcs are not Barb Shamans, but Warrior Sorcs and thus have a vastly different approach to magic.
    Yeah, it is obvious that Warrior Sorc is different than Barb Shaman, but it should be mentioned that WDG book doesn't have Warrior Sorc.
    It is Daemon-Slave Sorc - not on Path of Favoured, not on Path of Exiled and even not Irredeemable. Just another piece to already big mix (like triangle to box with squares, rectangles, circles and pentagons).
    Access to plate armour doesn't make Warrior (HFA does). Stats below core Warrior also doesn't help. Without any connection to WDG book if you don't buy Veil Walker (and even with it's not 100% - name of that rule doesn't suggest that as every wizard got access to Veil Tokens :P ). Just Fearless Sorc - without looking at mounts it would be hard to tell to which book it belongs.

    Barb Shamans at least would be piece of larger part of WDG book.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Armywide Signature Spells - Check! Maybe you could add something more? Success! We got Hereditary Spells!
  • I rather have evocation to boost my warriors performance against buffwagon buff spell boosted peasants. :)
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