WDG book 2.0 discussion

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  • lawgnome wrote:

    shakedown47 wrote:

    "Big devastating spells" as a strength is a sad joke, in no small part because big devastating spells don't even exist in the game anymore...and thank Dog for that, by the way. Purple Sun, infernal Gateway, Dreaded 13th and their like were fun for no one, brought nothing of substance to the game and were horribly unbalanced so I'm more than happy that we don't have anything like them anymore.
    I couldn't agree more with this statement. Those spells in that environment were anti-fun incarnate.
    That said, I disagree with the overall sentiment. I think that "big devastating spells" can be a good army strength (I mean, not in its current state, of course. We need to do some tweaking).

    I think that any of these changes could help make this an actual strength:

    - remove spell paths, and instead provide two or three "spell packets" to the sorceror (one big spells, one buffs/debuffs, one a combo maybe?)
    - remove soul tokens, increase veil token limits, and allow veil tokens to be burned for extra range/damage. This would also give you more dice if you want, letting you cast more big spells per turn.
    - let players burn veil tokens to give +1 to wound to any spell, letting small spells become big spells
    - let players cast damage spells into combat.
    - burn tokens to doublecast a spell

    What do you think?
    I like where you are going but Arent the big spells we put in our resources always gonna Draw the dispel dice and we are left with wasted ressources, and dice for a lesser spell? As long as the mechanics are made to be put into a specific spell and we have no other magic skills that can achieve some dominance, they can simply dispell the spells in which we Invest our veil/soul tokens as long as the dispelling it is as easy as if we didnt Invest anything in it.
  • @lawgnome I think you've got some good ideas there. I don't like the idea of "spell packets," I think Paths are just fine, and veil tokens for +1 to wound sounds really strong. What about:

    Instead of The Reckoning, we have Veil Mastery
    • The veil token pool limit is increased by an amount equal to the army's current total Channel value.
    • 1 Veil token may be spent to add +3" range or +1" aura to a damage spell, up to 2 tokens per spell.
    • 2 Veil tokens may be spent to allow the caster to re-roll failed damage rolls for a spell.

    And a new Hereditary Spell:

    Hellfire:

    Range: 18" Bound Spell (4/8)

    The target suffers a hit with Area Attack [X], Strength [X] and AP [X], where X is the number of Veil Tokens currently in the Veil Token pool.
    I hereby curse Raistlin 100 times over for being every fanboy's ideal wizard archetype. What's so wrong with my blue-eyed boy Thulsa Doom? Now there's a sorcerer worthy of the dark gods.
  • lawgnome wrote:

    - ...

    What do you think?

    Probably start from a high-level rather than from implementation details.

    My analysis of potential shooting phase damage in another thread (on the O&G board) says that armies with strong shooting phases can

    • invest about 1500 points into light shooting for 25 S3/4 hits (or the equivalent of that).
    • invest 700 points to inflict 7-10 high strength (S6,7,8,9) hits.


    The WDG magic investment is similar to that of other armies, except you can put points into battleshrines. But if you have 6 levels of magic from characters, plus the various bound spells, plus two battleshrines, you will probably run out of dice to cast with. So really an optimal WDG magic investment is probably the same as other races, plus maybe the ledger of souls to get the most value out of soul tokens for the least expense.

    Anyway, if WDG wants to have as much ability to deviate away from combat as other armies do, then there needs to be a way to invest about 2000 extra points into the magic phase, which is huge.
  • Warboss_R'ok wrote:

    Anyway, if WDG wants to have as much ability to deviate away from combat as other armies do
    Passive aggressive much? Nobody playing WDG wants the ability to "deviate away from combat as other armies do." We all knew what we were getting when we chose this army, no one is asking for the ability to bring a gun line or rows of artillery. It's an army laser-focused on combat, pure and simple; we're just asking to at least be as good in combat as any other army, and that's not the case.

    We should have the all-around best chaff. We don't. We should have really good, reliable anti-chaff. We don't. We should have some of the strongest combat unit build/banner/item combos. We don't. The reasons why are a mystery, or at least no one has been willing to articulate them.

    I hate to sound like a jealous middle child, but it's true. WDG don't have the best anything. We don't have the best standard combat lord, we don't have the best caster, the best Hereditary spell, or the best AWSR. We don't have the best point-for-point Core infantry, the best cavalry, the best non-character monster, or the best Giant. We have no heavy shooting, and the shooting options that we are allowed are designed to severely gimp the units that take it.

    Large WDG infantry blocks should be something that gives our opponents reason to worry, and getting into combat with us on their terms should feel like a chess game. I don't have the tools in this book to make either of those things happen.
    I hereby curse Raistlin 100 times over for being every fanboy's ideal wizard archetype. What's so wrong with my blue-eyed boy Thulsa Doom? Now there's a sorcerer worthy of the dark gods.
  • shakedown47 wrote:

    Passive aggressive much? Nobody playing WDG wants the ability to "deviate away from combat as other armies do."
    I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not being passive-aggressive, I'm just stating a fact. That fact is that an army that loses the entire shooting phase is 2000 points short on ranged options.

    The implication is that if damaging magic is supposed to be a strength for WDG that compensates meaningfully for the lack of a shooting phase, we should be thinking about how to add 1000+ points worth of extra magical damage.

    At the same time, if WDG wants to just be a pure combat army, we should cross out magic as an army strength and probably move away from the "damaging spells" idea because damaging spells are fundamentally anti-synergistic with wanting to be in combat.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Warboss_R'ok ().

  • Warboss_R'ok wrote:

    shakedown47 wrote:

    Passive aggressive much? Nobody playing WDG wants the ability to "deviate away from combat as other armies do."
    I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not being passive-aggressive, I'm just stating a fact. That fact is that an army that loses the entire shooting phase is 2000 points short on ranged options.
    The implication is that if magic is supposed to be a strength for WDG that compensates meaningfully for the lack of a shooting phase, we should be thinking about how to add 1000+ points worth of extra magical damage.

    At the same time, if WDG wants to just be a pure combat army, we should cross out magic as an army strength and probably move away from the "damaging spells" idea because damaging spells are fundamentally anti-synergistic with wanting to be in combat.
    Game dynamic doesn't allow for 1000+ magic points to be effective. Also strenghts shouldn't imply more points used on that strenght but a default advantage compared to other armies that lack that strength.

    Getting some skills to change our magic phase dynamic while using 500-700 points invested into magic as other armies should be enough.

    The way to compensate lack of shooting will never be magic at 100%, but movement tools that can't help invalidating that shooting and giving pressure to the enemy.

    Also think what would happen if we could invest effectively 2000 points into magic and made all of them work, what would SA, DE and HBE players say and with good reasons?
    Testing WDG 2.04

    VC for tournaments.
  • @Warboss_R'ok yeah sorry, I didn't understand your meaning, sorry for snapping at you like that.

    I'm sensitive about the fact that so many people had their blinders on when looking at the big picture of our book and where it fit into the game, or people that continue to be willfully ignorant about our issues, and i took the bulk of your post as yet another "you don't have it that bad" statement without paying enough attention to your ending sentence. My bad.
    I hereby curse Raistlin 100 times over for being every fanboy's ideal wizard archetype. What's so wrong with my blue-eyed boy Thulsa Doom? Now there's a sorcerer worthy of the dark gods.
  • Feynn wrote:

    Also think what would happen if we could invest effectively 2000 points into magic and made all of them work, what would SA, DE and HBE players say
    I think that depends whether you want to play against WDG whose only gameplan is to rush forward into combat, or whether you're OK with WDG that has an alternative where they sit back and magic you, or perhaps a hybrid where the army is 50% combat oriented and 50% magic damage oriented.
  • Warboss_R'ok wrote:

    Feynn wrote:

    Also think what would happen if we could invest effectively 2000 points into magic and made all of them work, what would SA, DE and HBE players say
    I think that depends whether you want to play against WDG whose only gameplan is to rush forward into combat, or whether you're OK with WDG that has an alternative where they sit back and magic you, or perhaps a hybrid where the army is 50% combat oriented and 50% magic damage oriented.
    I see magic as a support wich helps to do with annoying things we can't easily deal or buff, but anything else must be movement tools in order to change that rush forward dynamic.
    But nothing that random can't be the base for our strategies and needs.
    Testing WDG 2.04

    VC for tournaments.
  • I think there are some harsh realities that WDG players have to face up to.

    If the only win condition of the army is combat, then it will be a one-dimensional army that rushes forward to get into combat as quickly as possible. There really is no way around this.

    If the army is to have more than one strategy, then the alternative strategy needs to be one that you can invest a lot of points into, because a strategy that's limited to 10% of the points of your army isn't a viable strategy.
  • Anyone comparing Gateway to Purple Sun should re-think his knowledge of 8th edition.
    Purple Sun was game changing even when comped. Gateway (obviously without the old "remove unit if you roll 11+") was a random spell that however gave the army that much needed ranged threat, which we now sadly lack (unless going for a EH with Wrath).

    On the magic issue: yes, we deffo need a better spell selection. It should be enough to have a DECENT hereditary spell (like, you know, the one that was given to SA) and something else like making the magic banner cast a magic missile, and make the warshrine cast spells with a longer range.

    On the buff issue: we need sinergy in the army, period. It's not realistic to think an army can play only with stats: we'll always have overpriced and undersized units then.

    Also, something that came out after a few games: our leadership got worse, I hope everyone is clear on that. So not really an "independent" army.
  • F.Caccia wrote:

    Also, something that came out after a few games: our leadership got worse, I hope everyone is clear on that. So not really an "independent" army.
    Not only is it worse, a BSB is still heavily encouraged if you don't want to fail march, charge, restraint, etc. tests. I can't speak for others of course but I find I still very much need a re-roll bubble to run my army effectively, meaning hellforged armour rules are really only useful to me on units on the flanks where they can be self-sufficient. I appreciate the idea, I don't appreciate that no one thought about it for more than a few minutes.
    I hereby curse Raistlin 100 times over for being every fanboy's ideal wizard archetype. What's so wrong with my blue-eyed boy Thulsa Doom? Now there's a sorcerer worthy of the dark gods.
  • @shakedown47 I can't be more agree with you. This is why I propose hellforged reroll discipline test in the feedback thread.

    We really haven't got any buble independency. Because, even with reroll 8 is a bad leadership.

    Seriously, anyone thinks that you can even run a solo character. Checking for March move at L7 if enemy have musician. It is a sh*t even with bsb... And it is supposed that hero hammer is a prefered playstyle :thumbdown:
  • lawgnome wrote:

    - let players burn ... tokens to give +1 to wound to any spell, letting small spells become big spells
    - let players cast damage spells into combat.

    Fantastic idea. + to spells wounding is excellent for WDG as ofc it helps us with "devastating spells" without helping buff/debuff spells.

    The idea of casting spells into combat is great too. Long-range damage spells take the place of the cannon (that is, a slow, heavy shot while the army advances around it) while perhaps a new AWSR could essentially be "magic missile spells can be used as breath spells when the caster is engaged in combat."

    Edit: I'd also like to add that some more thought seems needed for the shrine's spell list. I'm concerned that we'd just be inclined to take one of the direct damage spells over the other if they don't have enough utility (ie, one being heavy AP, one being high STR).
    We balance not because we can but because we must

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Eilief: Afterthought ().