Dread Elves 2.0 Beta Armybook

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  • New

    Cam wrote:

    Not sure the Legionnaires pricing is the problem there though....
    In all seriousness: It is.

    The reasons why this is a problem are the following:
    1. Citizen Spears are (nearly) strictly superior to Dread Legionnaires. They have better combat (due to extra FiER being better than KI), are cheaper (-30 Points at 20 Models), and have an additional special rule (Martial Discipline).
    2. Citizen Spears have access to (arguably) better banners (Navigator and Ryma).
    3. Armies Strengths and Weaknesses does in no way suggest how HE (or SE for that matter) Spear Elves should be superior to Dread Elves. In fact it is the other way around. If you look at the Ninth Scroll #3 where Elven ASAW are compared and if you look at the units in the books, it is very clearly, that DE focuses more on infantry blocks than the other Elven factions. You can see it clearly in the core sections and the monsters of the books: Highborn have heavy cavalry with M9 in core and their monsters are flying and have M9 as well. Sylvans have as well have scoring cavalry with M9 in core in addition to a combat unit with Aegis saves (showing their duality Elves vs. Sylvan Spirits). Which faction has ONLY infantry scoring in core, but no less than four units of it? Dread Elves. Which is the only of the three factions needing to rely on their spear elves for lack of better alternatives? Dread Elves. If you look at the guide lines and the intentions of how these armies should work, the Dread Legionnaires should be the best spear elves, not the worst (and "the best" can include just being cheaper). (And giving Forest Guard Off and Def 5 "because otherwise the won't be played" must be the worst way of adressing balancing ever)
    My blog with battle reports and painting gallery: bleaklegion.wordpress.com/
  • New

    DarkSky wrote:

    Cam wrote:

    Not sure the Legionnaires pricing is the problem there though....
    In all seriousness: It is.
    The reasons why this is a problem are the following:
    1. Citizen Spears are (nearly) strictly superior to Dread Legionnaires. They have better combat (due to extra FiER being better than KI), are cheaper (-30 Points at 20 Models), and have an additional special rule (Martial Discipline).
    2. Citizen Spears have access to (arguably) better banners (Navigator and Ryma).
    3. Armies Strengths and Weaknesses does in no way suggest how HE (or SE for that matter) Spear Elves should be superior to Dread Elves. In fact it is the other way around. If you look at the Ninth Scroll #3 where Elven ASAW are compared and if you look at the units in the books, it is very clearly, that DE focuses more on infantry blocks than the other Elven factions. You can see it clearly in the core sections and the monsters of the books: Highborn have heavy cavalry with M9 in core and their monsters are flying and have M9 as well. Sylvans have as well have scoring cavalry with M9 in core in addition to a combat unit with Aegis saves (showing their duality Elves vs. Sylvan Spirits). Which faction has ONLY infantry scoring in core, but no less than four units of it? Dread Elves. Which is the only of the three factions needing to rely on their spear elves for lack of better alternatives? Dread Elves. If you look at the guide lines and the intentions of how these armies should work, the Dread Legionnaires should be the best spear elves, not the worst (and "the best" can include just being cheaper). (And giving Forest Guard Off and Def 5 "because otherwise the won't be played" must be the worst way of adressing balancing ever)

    Oh don’t get me wrong I agree with everything you said. I just think the problem is more with the pricing/power level of HbE spears.
  • New

    DarkSky wrote:

    Cam wrote:

    Not sure the Legionnaires pricing is the problem there though....
    In all seriousness: It is.
    The reasons why this is a problem are the following:
    1. Citizen Spears are (nearly) strictly superior to Dread Legionnaires. They have better combat (due to extra FiER being better than KI), are cheaper (-30 Points at 20 Models), and have an additional special rule (Martial Discipline).
    2. Citizen Spears have access to (arguably) better banners (Navigator and Ryma).
    3. Armies Strengths and Weaknesses does in no way suggest how HE (or SE for that matter) Spear Elves should be superior to Dread Elves. In fact it is the other way around. If you look at the Ninth Scroll #3 where Elven ASAW are compared and if you look at the units in the books, it is very clearly, that DE focuses more on infantry blocks than the other Elven factions. You can see it clearly in the core sections and the monsters of the books: Highborn have heavy cavalry with M9 in core and their monsters are flying and have M9 as well. Sylvans have as well have scoring cavalry with M9 in core in addition to a combat unit with Aegis saves (showing their duality Elves vs. Sylvan Spirits). Which faction has ONLY infantry scoring in core, but no less than four units of it? Dread Elves. Which is the only of the three factions needing to rely on their spear elves for lack of better alternatives? Dread Elves. If you look at the guide lines and the intentions of how these armies should work, the Dread Legionnaires should be the best spear elves, not the worst (and "the best" can include just being cheaper). (And giving Forest Guard Off and Def 5 "because otherwise the won't be played" must be the worst way of adressing balancing ever)

    I just cannot agree with this, based on my experience.

    You can't just look at their rules by themselves. Death Trance from altar, Academy Banner, The Wheel Turns, Crippling Fatigue... there are so many synergies to make Legionaires more powerful than their counterparts. It baffles me that time is spent talking about Legionaires when it would be better spent constructing thoughts about other glaring issues in the book.
    Australian #1 DE Aug '17 - Aug '18


    T9A - Nanatoo
    Wargamer.au - Naboo
  • New

    Nanatoo wrote:

    DarkSky wrote:

    Cam wrote:

    Not sure the Legionnaires pricing is the problem there though....
    In all seriousness: It is.The reasons why this is a problem are the following:
    1. Citizen Spears are (nearly) strictly superior to Dread Legionnaires. They have better combat (due to extra FiER being better than KI), are cheaper (-30 Points at 20 Models), and have an additional special rule (Martial Discipline).
    2. Citizen Spears have access to (arguably) better banners (Navigator and Ryma).
    3. Armies Strengths and Weaknesses does in no way suggest how HE (or SE for that matter) Spear Elves should be superior to Dread Elves. In fact it is the other way around. If you look at the Ninth Scroll #3 where Elven ASAW are compared and if you look at the units in the books, it is very clearly, that DE focuses more on infantry blocks than the other Elven factions. You can see it clearly in the core sections and the monsters of the books: Highborn have heavy cavalry with M9 in core and their monsters are flying and have M9 as well. Sylvans have as well have scoring cavalry with M9 in core in addition to a combat unit with Aegis saves (showing their duality Elves vs. Sylvan Spirits). Which faction has ONLY infantry scoring in core, but no less than four units of it? Dread Elves. Which is the only of the three factions needing to rely on their spear elves for lack of better alternatives? Dread Elves. If you look at the guide lines and the intentions of how these armies should work, the Dread Legionnaires should be the best spear elves, not the worst (and "the best" can include just being cheaper). (And giving Forest Guard Off and Def 5 "because otherwise the won't be played" must be the worst way of adressing balancing ever)

    I just cannot agree with this, based on my experience.
    You can't just look at their rules by themselves. Death Trance from altar, Academy Banner, The Wheel Turns, Crippling Fatigue... there are so many synergies to make Legionaires more powerful than their counterparts. It baffles me that time is spent talking about Legionaires when it would be better spent constructing thoughts about other glaring issues in the book.
    Disagree, they all rely on either spells; which your opponent will 5-dice when you really need it; 60 points of a banner that is there to make up for their limitations and divine altar which shouldn’t be an auto include just to make our core worth taking, they should be worth taking on their own right.
  • New

    Nanatoo wrote:

    DarkSky wrote:

    Cam wrote:

    Not sure the Legionnaires pricing is the problem there though....
    In all seriousness: It is.The reasons why this is a problem are the following:
    1. Citizen Spears are (nearly) strictly superior to Dread Legionnaires. They have better combat (due to extra FiER being better than KI), are cheaper (-30 Points at 20 Models), and have an additional special rule (Martial Discipline).
    2. Citizen Spears have access to (arguably) better banners (Navigator and Ryma).
    3. Armies Strengths and Weaknesses does in no way suggest how HE (or SE for that matter) Spear Elves should be superior to Dread Elves. In fact it is the other way around. If you look at the Ninth Scroll #3 where Elven ASAW are compared and if you look at the units in the books, it is very clearly, that DE focuses more on infantry blocks than the other Elven factions. You can see it clearly in the core sections and the monsters of the books: Highborn have heavy cavalry with M9 in core and their monsters are flying and have M9 as well. Sylvans have as well have scoring cavalry with M9 in core in addition to a combat unit with Aegis saves (showing their duality Elves vs. Sylvan Spirits). Which faction has ONLY infantry scoring in core, but no less than four units of it? Dread Elves. Which is the only of the three factions needing to rely on their spear elves for lack of better alternatives? Dread Elves. If you look at the guide lines and the intentions of how these armies should work, the Dread Legionnaires should be the best spear elves, not the worst (and "the best" can include just being cheaper). (And giving Forest Guard Off and Def 5 "because otherwise the won't be played" must be the worst way of adressing balancing ever)

    I just cannot agree with this, based on my experience.
    You can't just look at their rules by themselves. Death Trance from altar, Academy Banner, The Wheel Turns, Crippling Fatigue... there are so many synergies to make Legionaires more powerful than their counterparts. It baffles me that time is spent talking about Legionaires when it would be better spent constructing thoughts about other glaring issues in the book.
    Cult Priest in Altar cost around 680 pts.
    Wizard Master around 550 pts.
    All this to provides our overcost Legionaires powerful synergies. :thumbsup:
    If I play Legionaires is because the rest of core units are worst. The exception are the Dark Raiders.
    Maybe to balance this powerful synergies DE should be have R2 :thinking:

    Better I stop to speak about this because there are hundred of post about this toppic.


    That is all
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