Pinned Infernal Dwarves 2.0 BETA Armybook

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    • Infernal Dwarves 2.0 BETA Armybook

      WhammeWhamme wrote:



      Welcome to the New ID book thread.

      What do all the changes up to for us? Well...

      Common Rules Changes:

      Frenzy is quite relevant. It makes Disciples of Lugar, Kadim Incarnates and the Kadim Titan relatively prone to charging enemies that are placed close to them, which means baiting frenzied units just became more of a thing. So they'll need to stay in the BSB bubble until you move them close enough to the enemy that you were definitely going to charge next turn anyway. On the other hand, no forced overrun helps them.

      Paired Weapons is also big for Lugars - OS5, OS6 with the Banner of Shamut, can let these angry little guys get a lot of hits, and ignoring Parry makes them even better than before at butchering would-be tarpits.

      Line of Sight had a relevant change; The Lammasu can now hide behind our monsters. Avoiding getting shot is good, and makes a Prophet on a Lammasu a potentially interesting mobile spellcasting platform.

      Also, Spears: Spear Hobgobs might be scary now. Enemy Spears? Ugh. This is going to hurt - more AP is bad for us, a race with good armour. Do consider taking "Hobgoblin Sea Guard" though. It's funny, and not that expensive.

      Shame about the loss of Volley Fire though. That's going to hurt Hobgoblins a lot - they'll need a lot more space on the battle line.

      Magic Phase:

      Pyromancy took a hit. On the other hand, it's still good at dishing out a lot of S4 hits, our racial spell makes units flammable (which makes doing flaming hits to an entire unit very worrying, no? :) ) and gripping hand: it probably deserved the hit.
      Occultism got a lot better. Specifically, it ditched that super-garbage spell in the middle of the Lore. Also, being able to reliably get the spells of your choice means you can count on being able to cast the 5+ ward spell...
      Alchemy is similar to before. Of course, it was pretty good before, so who's complaining? Particularly since 2.0 is a general buff for the reliability of magic.

      Also, two mage combos are interesting now - because you get to *pick*, dual Prophet lists can (f'rex) take both +2 AS and 5++ as buffs for your big bricks for a relatively small investment, and thus more or less rely on getting one of the two off on your big brick on demand.

      But that's just scratching the surface, really. Go forth and experiment!

      Witchcraft (Lammasu, remember) is a little worse for us. No +3 March attribute any more. Still, Raven's Wing is nice (surprisingly fast dwarven advance!)... potential!


      Magic Items:

      There's a lot to explore here. I have my theories about what will be good to field, but who knows? I definitely think the ID-specific items are a good haul, but there's good stuff in common items; in particular, getting Regeneration on Infernal Plate is just cheeky, and being able to enchant a Great Weapon makes for some heavy-hitting magic item options.


      Our Book:

      We somewhat focused our redesign on enabling a play style that didn't work very well: Gunline. Icon of the Inferno makes the magic phase that much more destructive, the new Weapons Teams are much, much better than old, and the Rocket Battery is great at winning shooting wars and being reliable (which we need from our limited Barrage points).

      Also Blunderbusses. Not sure how best to use them, but there are a few approaches to try (Banner of the Relentless Company or Flaming Standard, f'rex. Or MSU BB spam.).
      On Hiatus. Want to see my Ogre Badlands Terrain?
    • Ok here we go!

      This is my full review on reading it, and no playtesting. So take this into account, I have not played with these units and after giving them a try in battle I will come back and post again, comparing them from how they read to how they actually perform. So without further adieu...



      Special Equipment/Magic Items: (quick analysis as there are so many changes)

      Wild Onyx appeared: Same as before tbh, but flammable is more common now at least.

      Burning Steel: Kinda pricey, but looks very good for that price. Not something I want to throw on my General however, unless he can fly.

      Steel Skin: Wow ok that is pretty nuts. 1+ Save and can be used with a Great Weapon? Not bad...

      Kadim Bindings: Ouch, pricey again. But 25points more than the rulebook version and it has volcanic in it. Looks good.

      Secrets of Mithril: Interesting choice...will be very meta dependent.

      The One Awesome Ring: Same good item.

      The Mask: 10 points to ignore armour but lose flaming. A fair trade.

      Gauntlets: Same as before but 5pts increase.

      Lugar's Dice: This is so cheeky and anti-poison/Battle Focus. I really like it.

      Bottled totally-not-a-genie: A very good item for mounted characters and quite cheap, I like it.

      Mechanism: We all know which unit THIS will be cast on...I hope people enjoy this Disciples never leaving the objective ever again.

      Tablet: Wow that is so cheeky and mean haha! I am pretty sure this used to be an Orc and Goblin thing?

      Bullhorn: If Engineers were not taken out of Barrage this would see play...

      Banner of Shamut: Ouch, this is really really good. I mean, if you have nothing better to give your combat units give them this! And it's cheap as well...I hope people like seeing this written down on every Infernal Dwarf Army list.

      Icon of the Inferno: Hmmm, kinda enforces big blocks with your wizard in them, which can stifle their line of sight. An interesting choice...but it has to fight for space with the Banner of Shamut, and I don't think it is going to win that fight.



      Ummm...where is the Vial? Oh dear...that's not good.




      Overlord:
      Tiny points drop and exchanged Thunderous for Battle Focus-lite. I am not sure if the minor cost drop is worth the trade-off here; while on foot this is clearly a fairer trade, but when mounted this is a much more significant loss as most of the time the Overlord would be doing the charging. While yes those mounts are a lot cheaper, I will have to see how this affects his actual damage-dealing power.


      Vizier:
      More significant points drop than his "lord" counterpart and a massive points drop in the price of his bull. This is what I like to see; the Vizier was previously overpriced compared to his identical counterpart in the Dwarf book so this bring him much more into line.


      Chosen of Lugar:
      Tbh this one changed so much that it is hard to compare the old one now. The increased ward, scoring ability and jacked-up speed make him far more of a threat and the minor price increase shows that the BLT understood he was over-costed in the last book.


      Prophet:
      Dropped a good chunk of points and magic is overall much more reliable. I say this is a positive change for our mainline wizard.
      However the engineer upgrade still coming out of Barrage still hurts as much as it did before.
      Thanks for the shield option though, keeps his status as the "brick mage" unchallenged.


      Tauruhk Subjugator:
      Dropped in price a little, but lost strider-everything and Devastating charge. I feel like this is actually another hit. I was expecting a MUCH larger points drop to our very overcosted centaur-character.
      This is certainly a negative to take away.
      Also no Vial...this does not bode well...


      Hobgoblin Chieftain:
      10pt cheaper Backstabber and lost Unruly...that's literally it.
      Not sure how to feel with backstabber only dropping 10 for stripping scoring from the unit...


      Mounts:
      No changes other than price drop, good sign. Just a shame the Lamassu dropped the least of the bunch.


      Infernal Warriors:
      Dropped 5 for the base price...so they are still more expensive than their near identical Dwarf counterparts, but I guess this brings them closer.
      Great Weapon got a tiny bit cheaper, so that is good.
      But holy mother of god what is up with that Blunderbuss price?! Look I know it got changed, but it is still a very short-ranged weapon and its best attribute has a teeny weeny range...that seems really uncalled for.


      Citadel Guard:
      So I guess 3 points cheaper at most with Flintlocks? Not a bad start...but the loss of defensive power verses shooting might make this a choice some people would rather avoid.
      They still function pretty much the same as they used to, so nothing negative here. Slight points drop was good as they cost the world before.


      Hobgoblins:
      More expensive for the base 20 and cheaper afterwards. Well that nudges people more towards big blocks of them...I dig it.
      The point drop on all equipment bar bows is good as well. Makes the vast numbers of them you will buy cut in even less than before.
      Positive change overall, taking into account the Volley Fire changes.


      Orc Slaves:
      Point drops all around here, not bad. Since they do nothing but die to a single round of combat the cheaper these are the better.
      The born to fight changes are irrelevant, so I am glad that was not included in their price. Positive change.


      Immortals:
      Literally no change except the Thunderous <-> Battle Focus-lite one. But Infernal Weapons now cost points to add...*sigh* just couldn't leave a good thing lie.
      Overall a negative change here. +2 points to have a two rules swapped, one of which always came into effect when activated, the other that will not be activated.


      Tauruhks:
      10 points...they got a ton of nerfs and they got dropped by 10 points?

      I know I know, but Infernal Weapons pay back for the Thunderous loss...but they cost 5pts each to add back, making them 25 points more expensive than before (and still lost strider).
      Negative change. Just...oh dear.


      Tauruhk Anointed:
      8.3pts per model for the same losses as the Subjugator and the babies. *Sigh* This may be a greater points reduction, but since damage dealing was why you used these things, this hurts more than the Tauruhks change. And the Infernal Weapon "buyback" costs 18 points? And the loss of the Vial combo means these guys will see very little play from now on.
      Wow...negative, so very negative.


      Hobgoblin Wolf Riders:
      No change other than unruly gone...soooo no opportunist? Still going to act like this race-specific rule being missing from them is not some secret way to nerf them? Hmmm?
      Anyway, no change here, but as long as the cowboy Chieftain is better they will continue to see little play.


      Rocket Battery:
      BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
      No.
      Ok look I get it, S7 so spooky, very high number, such wow. But it is 2D6 shots that lose all shots on double 6 and -1 if a single 6 is rolled. It is really not as strong as the Titan Mortar and it does NOT warrant this kind of insane price.


      Volcano Cannon:
      Ok this looks pretty good. Price drop, flamethrowers improved, flammable can now be spread around better. This is actually a very good change and I will probably bring it more often now.
      Very positive change.


      Bound Daemon:
      No change.


      Titan Mortar:
      Dropped 5 points, Bound Daemon Upgrade now works with it properly, and the upgrade costs the same as before (btw that looks VERY strong)...and no subtle nerfs...
      I must admit, you are really helping to not sell the Rocket Battery when the best war machine in the book gets a buff and a price drop. I am now very tempted to run 2 Bound Daemon versions of this brute now. Just...DAM son!
      Positive change, all the positive!


      Gunnery Team:
      Wow this looks nice. Very slick, very irritating for the opponent, very cheap. Daddy likes.
      Positive change.


      Hobgoblin Bolt-Thrower:
      No change. Let's keep it that way.


      Disciples of Lugar:
      Ok I saw a price increase coming, but this is very soft (and technically is a price drop if you buy Great Weapons, which were always overpriced on these guys).
      The speed and magical banner changes are more than enough to make these guys vastly improved over their previous incarnation (although the frenzy checks do worry me a little).
      Also, +2 march banner...16 inch Dwarf movement...lol.
      Positive Change.


      Kadim Titan:
      Dropped 10 points...please don't insult me. This thing is/was vastly overpriced when compared to just about every other monster in the game.
      And now it is even easier to hit in combat and runs around like a ninny all the time. Oh and Battle Focus is not as good on it as +1 attack was.
      Negative change...somehow.


      Kadim Incarnates:
      Well who didn't see this coming?
      They are certainly angry about it that's for sure, they might actually do MORE damage now; but need constant babysitting, which kills their previous role stone dead.
      I think these have changed so much with the simple frenzy changes that it is hard to judge if it is a negative or positive.


      Infernal Engine:
      Ok I see what you mean about the gun costing towards Barrage...just make the majority of the train stuck in the gun slot. Kinda cheeky guys, and a bit of false advertising.
      But can't complain that the train dropped 10 points for no losses. (30 point drop for the gun upgrade)
      Overall positive change.


      Armored Giant:
      The whip I see as the biggest buff to this guy. Agility 6 Giant on the charge? Yes please (because screw elves). This thing with the whip is now an anti-elven elite unit and I am very happy to see it...now if you will excuse me I need to go build 2 of them...
      The loss of stubborn, immune to psych, leadership drop and 5++ verses fire, and price increase are definite pains in the backside though.
      I will say positive change for now due to how he now fills a very interesting niche in the upcoming elven domination meta.


      Overall I feel that there are a hefty amount of price changes that I feel make little sense (for the better or worse). Some units are clearly very good, while others clearly awful. It is once again a lot of units that are pre-determined if you even want to consider them before you even open the book because of prohibitive abilities/pricing.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Tyranno ().

    • No need to use dice for getting the extra benefit of Icon of the Inferno, only for the spell triggering it.


      Talking about other things, I made a little document with the price changes from 1.3 to 2.0.

      Its a bit basic, nothing official and probably lot of errors :rolleyes:
      But could be helpul for spotting unseen changes (cheaper wolf heroe chaff, yaay)

      mediafire.com/file/rco517g50w0vcd5/ID+PRICING.pdf

      I hope you find it useful.
    • Alright, full thoughts/impressions now that I have played my first game and made some army lists: I am doing 4 games this weekend, should cement everything one way or another in my mind.

      From the top:
      Chosen of Ashurak: My thoughts on the changes here are well known. Skilled play basically makes the rule non-functional. The combat is decided long before the rule comes online, either from a favorable match up or a countercharge.

      Infusion: Did not change. Still hard to get.

      Opportunist: Did not change

      Volcanic Embrace: Its a nerf. A justified one as the skewed lists in the ETC and that I generally saw around in a few locations would indicate. Strictly worse than before, but did not seem to get a point reduction to compensate on any of the involved units.

      Infernal Armor: Has not changed. Still our thing.

      Infernal Weapon: Same as before... Although the wording on the unenchantable is... Poor. Simply say "An Infernal Weapon may not be enchanted". Fits the same result as what is currently written, much easier. Additionally I can see why it is not allowed to be enchanted by core rulebook enchants, but why not something special to our own book that would

      Flintlock Axe: The intent to differentiate them from blunderbuses further succeeded. They are now strictly worse in most roles except that of having a slightly longer max range. 32 points a model with a flintlock, 25 points for a dwarf with GW+Blunderbuss. If I am playing strictly msu, the flintlocks are slightly more point efficient, but the larger the unit gets the worse it is. Nerfing the armor piercing on the melee weapon did not noticeably come with a price decrease that I can see, as they are still horribly expensive, and STILL limited to a 20 man cap. Just allow them great weapons for like 3-4 points a model and raise their cap to 40. You want us to grind? Let us grind.

      Overlord: Pricy, force multiplier. In a deathstar build still the go to. Otherwise? I think most lists will leave him at home unless people are doing a flying bull otherwise.

      Vizier: Our BsB. He is what he is. Tough, solid.

      Prophet: Get him to a 1+ or 2+ armor, take a bunch of spells, and take only two characters. That seems to be the most efficient use of our time. Lores are fine. hereditary spell is fine. Really suffers for a third attack, as we want our characters waded into close combat. Perhaps an upgrade to make him more like a Chosen of Logar? An extra attack, loose the armor, etc.

      Hob chief: He is chaff. Do not pretend he is anything but. Why would I spend a bunch of points to send a Discipline 7 res3 unarmored unit unsupported behind the enemy? Never took it, and never will.

      Chosen Of Logar: Interesting implementation. Separate entry now which removes some baggage, generally decent all round stats. I can see the potential for a cult army where you can take two of them if one is the general, or to make him unlimited and make the scoring effect only for either the general or bsb.

      Subjugator: I am paying 305 points for an upgraded one, the exact same price as the giant. They have the same statline generally, with the subjugator having the added bonus of coming out of the character allotment, and being able to spend points to be even more expensive. I ran them in the previous book, although the build I used does not work. He does not inflict anywhere near enough damage for his footprint or price. Vial of mercury no longers exists to give him an excuse to buff the anointed unit, so he exists purely to bring an extra ws 5 attack to an anointed block, or to potentially cowboy, a role he is poor at due to his large size and low total damage output.

      Mounts: Hiding flying mounts is easier since they can cover behind the giant, Titan, or Infernal Engine. Mounted caster has a use, I ran that in the last book, and got easier. The rest of the mounts are the same as they where with the bonus of easier hiding.

      Infernal Warriors: See my comments regarding flintlock here. Blunderbus is prohibitively expensive for what it is I think, but they are STILL cheaper than flintlock armed CG, and more massable. Line infantry needs numbers, and these have them and similar armor. 100% would take over flintlocks, but blunderbuss has some issues. Namely it's threat band is so ridiculously tiny, and you are paying 5 points a model for a single shot in most cases. And taking a move and fire penalty for it. Deathstar with Overlord still works though, basically the blunderbuss is an excuse to soak up more core points in that case.

      Citadel guard: See Flintlocks and Infernal Warriors.

      Hobgoblins: Cheaper weapon options, worse bows. 40 points for 10 shots hitting on a 5 is never worth it. Bows are dead for these poor sods, the rest of the options are just fine point wise. Spears and Shields, or just shields for parry.

      Orc Slaves: Real winner of the core section. 115 points for 20 t4 models is dirty. Shields+Musician and you have a slightly expensive chaff unit which can SHATTER real units with a flank charge, hold against fliers relatively reliably, and generally muck up deployment/targeting priorities for your opponent. Why would I take anything else in this section?

      Immortals: Expensive, but worth it. Little to say here, they are our infantry. I would prefer to take more of them, but that wont happen.

      Tarukah: (little uns!) So... I get the normal dwarf profile? Check. Regular ID armor for us? 3+? Check. Slow/heavy cav movement rate? Check. Scoring dart. Used to be an excellent heavy chaff with the old paired weapons and thunderous charge. Now I can make them even more expensive and buy them gws or Infernal Weapons. 10 Str 5 attacks is... Ok. If they had the 2+ armor to go with that? Probably be worth it. As is they struggle for a role beside scoring darts, and we are not an army which should have scoring dart units. Give them monstrous support and actually they might be pretty good, as that would encourage larger, more dangerous units. Actually, that's a relatively simple fix for them.

      Annointed: These guys on paper look pretty good. The bigger the unit the worse they are due to their massive base size (THey take up the same frontage as a full on monster in many cases) while at max doing 5 wounds. The average monstrous infantry displays 4 infantry and does the same amount of wounds (3 attacks+Stomp). These display 25mm infantry, and max out at 4 wounds. One of their weapon options increases that to 5. They are immune to str 3 shooting generally, a plus, but I think in the new book these stay at home. They are strictly worse than the unit I extensively tested in the previous book due to the changes to paired weapons and thunderous charge and are inferior to almost any other unit in our book as a damage dealer or as a grinder. (Exception being against tarpits str 3 weapons with parry)

      Wolf riders; Chaff. low leadership. as cheap as they can be.

      Artillery:
      Volcano Cannon: Flame throwers got a buff. Testing them this weekend, looks better.

      Rocket battery: Cautiously priced. Much like that brick of gold I wish was on my shelf. It is expensive, looks good on paper, and is an excellent weapon to physically throw at the opposing player. Testing them in 4 games planned this weekend, my follow up will come.

      Titan Mortar: Slightly cheaper, devalues rocket battery due to it being fully cheaper, better against almost every target, having more wounds, able to shoot over infantry... Noticing a theme here? Its priced well, expensive enough to make one take real sacrifices to have it, and worth it's cost. The return of infantry to the meta as everyone seems to expect only increases the evaluation.

      Weapons teams: The old volley gun is still useless, even mobile and firing. Does like... 3 wounds on average v t3 models. Not worth it. Other two look excellent, although I suspect the flame thrower is much better value for points.

      Hob Bolt Thrower: If it kills the models your enemy sends to kill it, or takes a chaff piece out of the game for several turns to murder it it is absolutely worth it's cheap price. It can bully lone characters and models, good value.

      Disciplies of Logar: Expensive. Overpriced GW. Faster now though, and can be scoring. Before it was a no brainer to not take, now you can actually rationally include them in the list. Probably the Gws are too expensive, otherwise probably fine.

      Kdai Titan. Hhahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaa. You are joking right?

      Kdai Incarnates: These are no longer flanking tools due to the new frenzy. Even babysat they will likely still not do what you want them to do. Strangely, players like to make decisions. Removing the ability to make decisions makes them not like a unit as much. MSU Flank army of doom Is rightfully nerfed. Now will probably not see play though.

      Infernal Engine: Price split is good actually. That's 145 points I can now take a flamethrower with out of artillery. A good work around considering the volley gun, otherwise its the same.

      New Giant: Whip has a good use. Slaves are the way to go generally I think, making the whip and the agi5 the go to. Lost a point of strength on it's stomp, lost its 5+ against fire, lost it's ITP, lost 2 points of leadership. Similar price. Before I took these to generally threaten lone things with the variable table, and to stop a unit cold with a flank charge or as a super heavy chaff piece (Stubborn ten, kill me or you are stuck here). Those roles are no longer in play, so... Will need to find a new role. Strength five is weak in my opinion though, a dedicated damage dealer really needs strength 6 to make their hits really count. On him its probably ok considering rage, and he can hit quickly, but the whip conversely makes him worse there. You WANT to take damage to hit back harder, hitting first actually makes him slightly inferior in my opinion.

      Closing thoughts: I can see the units and playstyles the pricing team is afraid of. A lot of grandfathered problems which have not been fixed, but other things which where. New artillery section is much more playable than before, good job there, and Disciples are actually potentially worth it. Other parts of the army book though got clubbed like so many baby seals. New rocket battery in my first test game did... Very little. Im giving it my games tomorrow before I shelve it until it gets cheaper. Maybe against other types of lists I might get some traction but it generally hit about 3-4 times. Yay I killed 3-4 infantry! Meh?

      There ya go. More testing to come.
    • Banzgo wrote:

      It seems funny that the weapon teams are Constructs, meaning they take DT tests when marching in forests. And because they are constructs they are "chariots" so they take extra DT tests. Why cant they just be infantry?
      Gunnery Teams are mounted on small mining wagons. How would you justify the 4HP otherwise? Two big fat dwarves? :D

      "Steam Powered Chassis" Bro!
    • Gomio wrote:

      Banzgo wrote:

      It seems funny that the weapon teams are Constructs, meaning they take DT tests when marching in forests. And because they are constructs they are "chariots" so they take extra DT tests. Why cant they just be infantry?
      Gunnery Teams are mounted on small mining wagons. How would you justify the 4HP otherwise? Two big fat dwarves? :D
      "Steam Powered Chassis" Bro!
      *Looks at models*
      ...Uh oh...
    • I'm looking forward to trying out some new lists. A couple of things I noticed:


      Mortus wrote:

      Chosen Of Logar: Interesting implementation. Separate entry now which removes some baggage, generally decent all round stats. I can see the potential for a cult army where you can take two of them if one is the general, or to make him unlimited and make the scoring effect only for either the general or bsb.
      I would love to do this were it not limited to 0-1. A flaming cult list would be really fun, so I'm hoping this restriction gets removed. I'll do some testing, but I don't think it is a warranted restriction.



      I'm a little concerned about the new flaming banner and our unique ability to have flammable shooting. With the banners being one time use, our only reliable method of flaming shooting is going to be the flamethrowers. And don't get me wrong, the new flamethrowers do look good, but I would like more of an opportunity to spread out my flaming shooting, and I don't think the new banners are going to satisfy that.

      I'll try testing it, but I have a suspicion that the new flaming banner is going to suck.


      Regarding the new frenzy: I think we are going to be pleasantly surprised by it. Not so much that the titan isn't still overpriced, but it should be a little better to use.


      Finally, upon reading the book, I have to agree with @Mortus regarding the taurukhs and annointed: infernal weapons are nice, but too expensive on an already lackluster unit. I'll still try them out, but it is a bad first impression.
    • @Irondaemon I played the big unit of anointed list in competitive tournaments for about 4-5 months.

      You do not see big hordes of infantry because large size units are fundamentally incapable of focusing damage onto small points, while cowboys, chariots, monsters and the like are able to corner in on big units and inflict their full damage while taking less potential damage back.

      The armies which tend to be good in the 1.3.4 meta focus lots of damage onto small points and control their engagements. I countered that with fields of slaves to tie things up, and zone control using the high movement of the Annointed. Strictly speaking, the exact same unit I ran before lost a point of strength and armor piercing on the charge, Lost a point of initiative off the charge, gained +1 Os, and now ignores parry.

      Im done testing them. Flat out inferior to the previous book and the exact same price. Giving them Infernal weapons does not fix their damage output issues. Smaller tarkuah are better for small scoring units which pains me to admit. Or just run infantry and hide your scoring units behind slave screens like I do.

      Oh, I missed your post @KeyserSoze ! I missed you! <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

      Why did you have to go away and leave me with these... others... That goes for you too @Grimbold Blackhammer

      You probably hit the nail right on the head. We are priced based on what the rules team fears we could do in optimal situations, similar to what the all cav KoE army does in the hands of a master v someone less so.

      I am forcing myself to run units I know are bad to prove a point, and I am not happy about it by the way.
    • There's a long story behind ID update and I'm not allowed to reveal more(theres no conspiracy or something ;)) but I will look closely to feedback here.

      Generally I believe that we need to clarify and set some guidelines as to what is grinding and how to make the best of it. I still see some units, lists, armies that are supposed to be good at grinding but I have never close to see it applied on the battlefield.
      Just remember this is beta so there's chance to greatly change some things across armies.

      I'm quite excited about our items though, I'll probably go for 3 characters in my first lists.

      Army Design Team

      Rules Clarification

      Lexicon Team

      Oceanborn

    • KeyserSoze wrote:

      Generally I believe that we need to clarify and set some guidelines as to what is grinding and how to make the best of it. I still see some units, lists, armies that are supposed to be good at grinding but I have never close to see it applied on the battlefield.
      Because Agility2 and AP everywhere makes it a horrible idea for our Dwarf units to try and do that.

      It's fine for Dwarven Holds as they have a 5++. But we can't do it with AP as it is. Either AP goes down in general, we find a way to nick Shield-Wall without making it look obvious or we abandon grinding as a strength and go for combat burst like we used to.