The Beta 202v update Hot Fix - Infernal Dwarves

    This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

    The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

    • The Beta 202v update Hot Fix - Infernal Dwarves

      Overlords,
      as you may know there will be quick fix for army books soon, if you dont, please check this link:

      the-ninth-age.com/news/index.p…v-update-hot-fixes-setup/

      "Aim
      The aim of Beta 202v update is to make minimal tweaks to big and urgent problems. It is done as quickly as possible after the initial beta release, aiming to be released early February, in order to allow as much data gathering as possible for the big early summer update. We want to address the big balance and design mess-ups that risks screwing up the meta game and therefore damage our data gathering.
      Note the words "urgent" and "big". Ideally no book has any such problems. This is not intended to fix all problems in the book, nor is it intended to fix small problems that doesn't really have any effect on the game.

      Feedback report asked from ACS
      Each of the 16 ACS teams is to provide RT with a list of up to 5 big problems, numbering 1 to 5, (if needed additional 5) 1 being the most important issue with (design or balance) in their army book. These should be the biggest problems. An additional 5 issues may be added if these are things that needs to be tuned down."


      Its time to make a good use of your playtesting time and help us to identify those "big issues" in our book.

      We will proceed in the following manner:

      - Write a single post with your "5 big problems + up to 5 things to tune down (optional)". Numbering 1 to 5, (if needed additional 5) 1 being the most important issue.
      - Say if it is a balance problem (could be solved with points or categories changes) or a design problem (couldnt be solved with points or categories changes).
      - If needed write how you will solve it (please short and clear).
      - If you are a bit lazy or you find that other person has exactly voiced your 5 issues, just like his post and we will count it as voting.

      Remember, "minimal tweaks that solve big problems". A warmachine greatly overpriced could be a "big problem", lowering the price per model of a unit a pair of points its not. Also you can report "obvious mistakes" made during design.

      After this, the ACS will collect all the votes and will elaborate their report for RT.

      I will write my voting on the first post of this thread as an example for how to vote.

      Please, stay civil while making your claims, we are here for your opinions. Call your ID friends and ask them to vote on this thread.
      No discussion on this thread, use beta book thread for that. Any post that doesnt follow these guidelines will be deleted.


      Thanks for your collaboration
      The ID ACS Team
    • 1. Chosen of Ashuruk. Design problem. New CoA seems to deserve another new overhaul, but since we are here for small tweaks, I would suggest just making the Battle Focus work the next time a CoA model attacks after the unit with CoA suffer damage.

      2. Rocket Battery. Balance problem. Greatly overpriced for what it brings to the table.

      3. Kadim Titan. Balance problem. Greatly overpriced for what it brings to the table.

      4. Blunderbuss. Both Balance and Design problem/maybe a mistake.
      Design problem: with its short range, Blunderbuss seems designed as an offensive shooting weapon. March into the face, shoot and S&S. In most situations the short range makes unable to use the "+1 strength when shooting at short range" combined with a S&S reaction because of how the rules for S&S work. Seems like it is not working as intended. Would like to see added "always can S&S regardless of the enemy distance".

      Balance problem: would like to see a combined option for "blunderbuss&great weapon" that could come at a reduced price. Taking both weapons separately is too expensive because you cant get the most of the cc weapon if you play the unit conservatively as a shooting unit and vice versa.

      5. Anointed weapons. Balance problem. Shield and Infernal Weapon are greatly overpriced for what they bring to the table. Great Weapon feels overpriced too but not for such a huge margin.
    • 1: Chosen of Ashuruk.
      Combat part of it is lackluster. Battle Focus on a low attack unit (all Infernal Dwarves outside of Disciples of Lugar, who can't even benefit from this anyway) generally has little results, this is compounded by it not even working on the first turn of combat.
      Also Disciples of Lugar don't even benefit properly from this rule as it is right now, this should be addressed.
      Potential solution: Remove Battle Focus for something with MUCH more punch behind it (like Hatred if the unit has taken damage in that round of combat?). The loss of Thunderous in exchange for this was not a fair trade.

      2: Rocket Battery.
      Hilariously overpriced. Armour can still block it and it does not generate enough shots to warrant a price tag higher than our best war-machine. Should be dropped to about half its current price.

      3: Blunderbuss.
      Both balance and design problem. Overpriced to the nth degree at the moment, and does not result in more than 2 shots per-game (and that is a push). And it never does enough damage to justify that huge price tag.
      The S5 part also never comes into play. I would ditch the S5 part completely and give the unit multiple shot D3 like the ogre weapons.

      4: Tauruhk family.
      Tauruhks, Anointed Tauruhks and Tauruhk Subjugator are all overpriced right now after suffering a ton of nerfs, and when returned to a similar version of the power they used to have it costs more than they used to (and they were over-priced before).
      This combined with the Anointed+Subjugator losing their best item means these bulls need a significant price drop to make them worthwhile again. Especially the Subjugator, who has almost no reasons to actually be played anymore as he costs as much as a unit of anointed with little to no benefit.
      Also. 2+ armour save. There are monstrous cav with this and monstrous infantry, so there are no excuses why an army with armour as its biggest strength cannot have 2+ save cavalry+monstrous cavalry.

      5: Disciples of Lugar.
      Very high priced and have a wimpy offense. Great Weapon price is very over-costed as now the Disciples have to sacrifice a decent Agility stat to use it.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Tyranno ().

    • 1) Infernal dwarfs are not good at grinding
      Design problem. Infernal Dwarves are supposed to be good at grinding, but they don't have the resilience to do so. We need an introduction of special rules that allow us to negate damage - especially on the first turn of combat. Suggestion: This could be accomplished through a change of the Chosen of Asharuk special rule.

      2) Blunderblusses (and flintlocks)
      Design and balance problem. Blunderblusses dont really have a good flair and are heavily overpriced. In addition, they need to have a more clearly distiguished role from flintlocks. Suggestion: Make it a weaker weapon (S3, ap1?) with range 18 which gets significantly stronger on close range and when stand and shooting, fx. through increased strength or multible shots. Then making the flintlocks better on long range (accurate/better range), will help to distiguish the two weapons.

      3) Kadim Incarnates
      Design/Balance problem. With frenzy, Kadim incarnates cannot operate on a flank, and have therefore lost their purpose in the army. In addition they are overcosted and are extremely easy to handle with cavalry and fireborn characters and units. Suggestion: Make them significantly cheaper or remove frenzy.

      4) Kadim Titan
      Balance problem. The Kadim needs to be significantly stronger or significantly cheaper. Suggestion: 4+ ward, +1A. Same price.

      5) Rocket Battery
      Balance problem. The mechanics are fine, but the price horrendous. Suggestion: 260p
    • - 1 Rocket Battery: balance/design
      To expensive for what it brings to table. Could also be improved designwise, with something like MW 2, lethal strike... which increases how deadly to match its points cost

      - 2 Chosen of Ashuruk: design
      The initial conservative approach was the right one to make, but it is showed the current status is to weak. Either add a wound trigger on top of current rule or tweak it to work in turn N of game

      - 3 Annoited & Subjugator: balance
      Infernal Weapon & Shield options expensive. Subjugator costs nearly as 3 annoited and hits like Annoited champion, with little more survability

      - 4 Blunderbuss: Design/balance
      Currently, it overlaps with flintlock, so you choose best option since both "do the same". Can't properly Stand & Shoot due to low range and rules. Expensive when matched with Great Weapon.

      - 5 Kadim Titan: design
      It has the cost of the best unmounted monster in game, but it isn't. Hits like a brick, but lacks survability to do his job.
    • Copy Gomias post almost in full, but added and removed and shuffled a bit.

      1. Chosen of Ashuruk. Design problem. New CoA seems to deserve another new overhaul, but since we are here for small tweaks, I would suggest just making the Battle Focuswork the next time a CoA model attacks after the unit with CoA suffer damage. Or just work from first turn. Less cool, maybe, but easier.

      2. Blunderbuss. Both Balance and Design problem/maybe a mistake.
      Design problem: with its short range, Blunderbuss seems designed as an offensive shooting weapon. March into the face, shoot and S&S. In most situations the short range makes unable to use the "+1 strength when shooting at short range" combined with a S&S reaction because of how the rules for S&S work. Seems like it is not working as intended. Would like to see added "always can S&S regardless of the enemy distance". For now with small tweaks that seems to be an acceptable solution, even though there is more that should change. Like adding QtF.

      Balance problem: would like to see a combined option for "blunderbuss&great weapon" that could come at a reduced price. Taking both weapons separately is too expensive because you cant get the most of the cc weapon if you play the unit conservatively as a shooting unit and vice versa. Same goes for Flintlocks Axe units, which in my mind is a problem. Add options to use the Axe like a halberd, and reduce price.

      3. Kadim Titan. Balance problem. Greatly overpriced for what it brings to the table.

      4. Taurukhs, all kind. Design problem. Now they’re don’t really function as neither shock troops not anvils. The smaller ones is reduced to heavy chaff and scoring darts. The anointeds... Devastating charge and better AS is a good idea, I think.

      5. Rocket Battery. Balance problem. Greatly overpriced for what it brings to the table.
    • *takes off AvB hat*

      Chosen of Ashuruk - my own notes tell me 84% of combats are over in a single turn of combat. And with generally low Agility, dwarfs get hit twice before the ability kicks in. The rule rarely comes into play and when it does, the unit has already been gutted so the effectiveness is wasted.

      Blunderbuss - They are a one-shot-per-game weapon so overpriced. They could use a patch of always being allowed to Stand & Shoot or need a redesign.

      Those are my only "big" items :)

      Executive Board

      Administrator

      Human Resources



      Want to help out? The 9th Age is an all volunteer organization and we're always looking for like-minded folks! Message me if you are interested!!
    • 1 - CoA/Grinding: Design problem. CoA is a really weak rule, and grinding is not-existant. CoA should give a much more stronger bonus, like +1S +1AP or eternal hate just before u get attacked. To make grinding viable CoA should give some defensive bonus, like -1AP, or the Infernal Armours.

      2 - Rocket Battery: Balance problem. 100 points overcosted

      3 - Kadim Titan: Balance problem. >100 points overcosted

      4 - Blunderbusses: Design and balance problem. useless. Should always SnS and always give the +1S.

      5 - Taurukh family: Balance and design problem. overpriced. Need more AS too.

      6 - Bound Daemon: Design problem. needs move and fire

      7 - Infernal Engine: Design problem. Should be able to charge by the flank.

      8 - Engineer: Balance problem. overpriced, unplayable because getting points from Barrage. Remove that.

      9 - Kadims: Design problem. frenzy has killed them.

      10 - Flinlocks: need a total redesign. Actually, push them to +6 range to be clearly different than BBs.

      11 - Flying monsters: Balance problem. Lammasu is overpriced. Little Bull is overpriced. Big bull is unplayable, need more Aegis.
    • 1. Titan Balance

      Way too expensive. With frenzy it is hard to control him and 590 points can be lost easily.

      2. Blunderbusses Design/Balance

      They got worse and more expensive. They are useless right now

      3. Incarnates Design Balance

      They don´t have a real function anymore since they are too hard to control.

      4. Rocket battery Balance

      Way way too expensive

      5. Engineer

      Almost useless. Price must be reduced
      Gotta kill those elves
    • Almost all have been said above but here is my priority order:
      1. Grinding failure - design problem, battle focus after suffering wounds is a beggining but I would make it more like rage mechanic eventualy - the more wounds we suffer the better we fight (hate etc) , thats the only way to grind with expensive and low in number army, while not copying DH wards etc.
      2. Make the Titan great again! - Balance/design - great not cheep, but 4++ and small cost reduction is good and quick start
      3. Mid range shooting - design/ balance - we need some reliable weapon in 24-30" effective range. BB and flintlocks are too similar and too expensive. Flintlocks should be cheeper, accurate or quick to fire. BB short range, always SS, high dmg and really cheep as addition to combat block but also one use only. Also making gunner teams 0-2 for every available weapon would help. But that also require barrage % change.
      4. Our mounts still need love - Balance - especialy lammasu and grearter bull. Cost drop is obvious but with bull that might be not enough.
      5. rocket battery - balance ~200 pts should be starting point for beta.

      Also tauruk family need cheeper infernal weapons and 2+ AS available.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by hypnotic ().

    • 1 - CoA – Design issue.CoA promotes our “army weakness” of first turn damage output by delaying BattleFocus, but does not sufficiently boost our “army strength” (“grinding”). BattleFocus by itself is not enough, and should either be combined with something that
      promotes survivability (Unbreakable 1st turn in combat + enemyAP reduction?), or dropped all together in favor of something more potent.

      2 – Blunderbusses – Design issue. Way too expensive given the limited use you get out of them. These really need a SIGNIFICANT price reduction AND the ability to S&S always.

      3 – Bound Demon – Design issue. Needs ability to move and fire.

      4 – Rocket Battery – Balance Issue. Too expensive to consider, needs significant price reduction.

      5 – Titan – Balance / Design Issue. Too expensive for its abilities. Needs significant price reduction or redesign.

      Other issues for sure: Anointed (too expensive,especially with IW / shields), mounts too expense, issues with Engineer (price reduction, not come out of Barrage), but if I have to stick with 5 issues, I think the above are more pressing.
    • - Kadim Titan: i totally prefer an expensive model but hard to kill which can hit hard like a train in the face. Im ok in paying a lot of points if you can bring true Destruction and resilience. I dont like the idea of a cheaper and less powerful monster. Give him some sort of real protection and MR, same price or more if you can guarantee an impressive center piece of ID army

      - Blunderbuss: should be a flexible weapon with high dmg with short range, capable of shooting even on the charge and regardless being charged. Should be cheaper, and should be a cheaper option for BB+GW.

      -Chosen of Ashuruk: Battle Focus never happen, make it trigger after receiving wounds or enhance it giving more trigger the more models are slain.

      - Taurukhs: IW+Shield should be cheaper. Subjugator should have some racial rule to boost his kin, his price is way to high since it bring nothing compared to 3 more anointed at the same price

      - Immortals should have more resilience. They die like flies and are very expensive for what they do. Usually on the table mostly for Stubborn rule. Price reduction as hotfix, for future changes make them woundable only on 4+ or worse and AS cannot suffer more than AP1 in the first round of combat or distracting
    • Key issues for me:

      1: Flintlocks gain Accurate and Quick to Fire. This would make them actually worth their astronomical point cost, currently they're immensely expensive handgunners. Functionally due to Hail of the Gods you can never have more than 40 in a normal list anyway, they have lower effective threat range than normal handgunner units, and they will inevitably be trudging into contact with the enemy battleline. For all those reasons, they need to function as a mobile shooting unit.

      2: Blunderbuss changed completely. Range 12", Strength 3, AP1, 2 shots, Quick To Fire, Accurate, may fire after marching, no penalty on Stand and Shoot. This gives them a distinct role over flintlocks (currently they compete directly, and the flintlock is strictly better).

      (after fixing the mechanics of ID shooting core, on the next update I would consider dropping point costs too. For now, changing the weapons to be functional will reveal if it's just that, or if point costs need to come down as well. This will also reduce potential pushback from other factions, because the point costs haven't changed at this time).

      3: Rocket Battery reduced to 200 points. This should strike a balancing point between the cheapness of other artillery options, and the Titan Mortar. Currently it is absurdly overpriced.

      4: Kadim Titan reduced to 450 points. Its speed and lethality is fine, but it is simply too expensive to be worthwhile. There is already a hard cap of 0-1 anyway, it doesn't need to cost the moon.

      5: Fix Immortals, make the great weapon for infernal weapon swap free (both have selling points, but the infernal weapon isn't 2pts better), shield rolled into default wargear (out of any unit in our army, the bodyguard unit should have shields).
    • Stolen from others and rearranged:

      1: Design: CoA – Design issue.CoA promotes our “army weakness” of first turn damage output by delaying BattleFocus, but does not sufficiently boost our “army strength” (“grinding”). BattleFocus by itself is not enough, and should either be combined with something that
      promotes survivability (Unbreakable 1st turn in combat + enemyAP reduction?), or dropped all together in favor of something more potent (andrewgeddon)

      2: Design: Kadim Titan: i totally prefer an expensive model but hard to kill which can hit hard like a train in the face. Im ok in paying a lot of points if you can bring true Destruction and resilience. I dont like the idea of a cheaper and less powerful monster. Give him some sort of real protection and MR, same price or more if you can guarantee an impressive center piece of ID army (Inverno)

      3: Balance/design: Immortals are far from immortal, yet more expensive than before.

      4: Balance: Rocket Battery currently too expensive and not worth it at all compared to the other choices

      5: Balance: Mounts still needs a price reduction. 1 wound and no extra toughness doesnt cut it for 240/345 points
    • Since @WhammeWhamme asked, minor fixes ahead. I don't think they are urgent, but worth considering for FAB or future updates.

      - Bound Demon, design: lose move or fire or at least be able to pivot and shoot.

      - Bull/Lamassu, design: +1 Resistance and/or +1 Health Point

      - Hobgoblin Archers, collection: nerf to volley fire and inclusion to Hail of Gods is enought, aditional 0-60 restriction might be overkill. Be 0-100 so people may use their models.

      - Infernal warrior & citadel guard, design: gain acces to spear. Bost to grinding and may help towards mmu army instead of msu gunline.

      - Taurukhs, balance: IW to expensive

      - Incarnates, design: with new rules they have losed their function, since you can't control them.

      - (In)mortals, design: their price is in the range of elite dwarfs, but they aren't that elite. Need survavility &/or damage
    • Extras:

      - We lack AP. Every AP option better than 2 points is really subpar choice due to being too much expensive in any useful combination (Infernal Warriors with BBs and GWs for a bare AP2 or the super expensive Disciples) or being in subpar units such as Anointed and Titan(overpriced and lackluster in many ways) or being an anti-grind concept such as Immortals with GWs (they do not survive with shields, even less without them. If they die in droves, they do not stay into combat). Even our trusted Pyromancy is without AP (and with a reason). Maybe something like a Kadim Kin rule built into the Titan, giving all Flaming attacks (or only Volcanic Embrace) AP(1), this should differentiate the shock and destructive role of the pure Kadim Flames from the more tanky approach of our fleshy Dwarves. (I know, this is not a small fix, but can be an idea for future re-design :P )

      - Incarnates. They do not have any role atm imho. I hate the idea of using them abusing the light troop rule to avoid failed Discipline 6 Frenzy test by facing them backward. It's just the unimmersive apotheosis, but if you face them correctly they are COMPLETELY unreliable and need babysit (usually from a slower on foot BSB/Prophet) making them decent as backline countercharger. Along with this, they lost the AP1 on the Volcanic Embrace and the Stomp(1), while retaining their price. Drop price to make them fast suicide bombs or fix those crazed flames into a more reliable thing.
    • My biggest issues:

      - CoA rule
      Should work faster (every time a unit gets hurt) and bring more to the table.
      Maybe higher the strength by 1 if the unit is at half unit size or give hatred then.

      - Rocket Battery
      Reduction of points. Due to new LOS rules, low aim and low AP completely overrated.

      - Taurukhs
      Either reduction of weapon points or AS 2+ combined with reduction of speed to 6/12. We don't need attack forces; we need survivability.

      - Kadim Titan
      Ridiculously overcosted compared to all other monsters. 150*100 base and frenzy still hurts a lot. New LOS rules will hurt complete army because even bound daemon will not be able to shoot through him.
      Reduction of movement to 6 or 7 could be a new way combined with AS 3+ or aegis 4+.
      Again: We don't need an attack force but rather survivability.

      - Infernal Engine
      As one of the most iconic models it should be representable. Still too expensive, still too expensive and unreliable shooting option (should be 3W3 shots instead), still not 0-2 models per army

      - Bound Daemon
      Move and fire. Or at least pivot and fire.
      Honestly, we are talking about a 100*150 base model with movement 4.
      This is nothing regarding movement capability.

      - Infernal Warrior/Citadel Guard
      Spears and/or Halberds!
      There are models for it.
      There is a need for it (AP and grinding).
      And we have high priced models that could need a medium priced weapon option between great weapons and hand weapons.