What items do you think need a redesign? and why?

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  • What items do you think need a redesign? and why?

    What's your list? Let's see if we all agree on the same items and we can expose the reasons coherently to be heard!

    Here's my list:

    - Wyrmwood core

    Why does not work?

    Not only is too expensive, it locks us having Flaming attacks and reduces our grinding capacity to s4 hits. . But having a Breath weapon on artifacts seems rebundant.

    How to fix?
    Maybe it only needs a points reduction or be usable on other weapons

    - Faith of Percival

    Why does not work?
    For me an armour that doesnt grant +1 armour is not good enough as it locks us at 2+ save max. Also you can't combine it with dusk stone because then you cannot use both effects at the same time neither with helm as its same slot.

    How to fix?
    Could be fixed by giving it +1 armour or turning it into a Shield

    - Crystal

    Why does not work?
    It's useless, only works on msu and when we already have charged and are stuck so we are toast anyway, only if the opponent relies on magic, and only if they are near...completely redo for something new. We already have an anti magic item in wafers.

    How to fix?
    We could do an new item, wizard only to make a damsel a competent general with ld 9 for example...this open lots of diferent builds.

    - Banner of the Green knight

    Why does not work?
    The concept is ok...but for it to work we need cheap characters and lots of character points. until solo paladins redirectors are viable again this will not be truly useful.

    How to fix?
    I prefer to change it to something like old gleaming icon
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    The post was edited 3 times, last by Kratos ().

  • - Fortress of Faith :

    Why does not work?
    It as a strong and unique effect, potentially too good is some situation, which leads to price and restrictions, which leads to it only being taken in best-situation only, which imo is deathstar. If we don't want deathstars, that item should be reworked, if we want deathstars, that item should be reworked or face a point cost increase.

    How to fix?
    Change the "must attack the bearer" to something that gives a choice, but still give incentive to attack the bearer (like "if you could attack the bearer but don't, you must reroll successful hits").


    - Storm Clarion :

    Why does not work?
    Only used in team tournament AFAIK, because only usable against some lists, and totally useless against other.

    How to fix?
    Nostalgia in me scream to not to purely delete, so maybe change it to have a larger impact potential (targeting swifstride, ...)


    - Crystal of the Valiant Charge :

    Why does not work?
    See Kratos comment.

    How to fix?
    New item. Nostalgia scream to get inspired by a "Mirror", don't know why ... :D (be it store a enemy spell for futur use, change target, simply blast the enemy caster's unit,...)


    - Banner of the Green Knight :

    Why does not work?
    Interesting effect, but for having played with it, no meaningful impact on my games.

    How to fix?
    If we want to keep current idea (more a positioning item) which I think is good, maybe replace +2 Mar with something a little bit more interesting (Reform at then end of an Advance Move ? Permanent effect but only during Move phase -> no charge/pursuit ? Allow to make a Magic Move ?).


    Note: I kind of agree with the Faith of Percival, but can't really explain why I don't like it. Wyrmwood Core is fine imo, even if both of your proposed options are fine. Not a redesign need, barely a small tweak.
  • Percival, you peasant, shape up your armour!

    With the removal of divine icon from common items we can use divine immunity from Percival against... Uhm... Let’s see... Mirror match with grail knights, that’s it?

    Pointless effect. +1 Aegis is useful, but only using 50% of an item, regardless of cost is just shallow design.

    I have no more to add.

    Carry on.
    "In the end rules are just the groundwork for 2 players to have an agreement on how the game is played. If you friends/gaming group is fine with it you can do what ever you want with the game." - Smart Guy on the T9A forum

    "By the Lady, is that Elderberries I smell?" - Duke Niemar of Snowfall's Eves
  • Wyrmwood core - I don’t like breath Weapons/ ranges attacks. If my duke is using this then he’s not built to fight well

    Fix? Completely redesign and rename. Rerolls to wound towards large targets and gains +2 attacks on the charge.

    I didn’t really think anything through I just would prefer that or anything like that over the current wyrmwood core
  • 15 items and it seems like we got 5.. maybe 7 if were getting creative.
    Also anyone wanting to redesign fortress because its broken or auto include etc needs to be saying the same thing for banner of the last charge. Its everything fortress is only more. Just saying.. you can't call out fortress and not call out last charge.


    Anyway these do not consider pricing..

    Divine judgement
    Doesn't work except OTC. I'd like to see this on a non flyer. Suggestion- add +1 strength +1 ap in subsequent rounds of combat. Powerful first turn damage but barely good enough turn 2 damage.

    Wyrmwood core
    Doesn't work except OTC and completely under powered weapon if priced outside of champion access. Suggestion- complete redesign: change to reroll wounds; add lethal strike in subsequent rounds of combat (both in subsequent). This might be good enough to put on a grail duke. Consider this is probably still not as strong as kingslayer + renown vs characters.. 5 S7 ap4.

    Faith of percival
    Now irrelevant since it maxes at armour 2+ same as mundane equipment while divine attacks are now almost non existent. Its currently a blank entry. Suggestion- +1 aegis. At beginning of turn may choose to reroll the blessing until start of next friendly turn. If so cannot take armour saves. Note this would have better synergy with grail oath then questing.. something that is currently lacking.

    Uthers conviction
    AP 6 is rare enough to make this a blank more often than not barring fear of war machines if the bearer is alone. Suggestion- change to +1 aegis vs ap 4 or greater. Also consider the change to praying frequency in 2.0.

    Storm clarion
    Complete niche use. Suggestion- Pts reduction. Would suggest scrapping this but its iconic link to the past so maybe worth keeping for nostalgia. Hmmm on second thought maybe it could confer hard target to friendly flyers. Idk.

    Wafers
    Underwhelming design typical of 2.0. Here I'll dumb this down for 3.0- one use only. At step 3 after siphon remove 1 veil token from the enemy pool. Oh wait that sounds like the crystal of never takenness. At least make this d3 waffles.

    Crystal
    Good lord this thing sucks. Proximity restriction. One use only. Opponents turn means 2 turns of combat unless they charged us. And then all that for 1/3 of a measly power dice per unit. Ahahaha. Bleh.
    Suggestion- strike one use only. Change to: If the bearer or a friendly unit in 18" successfully charged during this game turn the bearer adds +1 to all dispel attempts until the start of the next friendly movement phase. If 3 or more friendly units successfully charged instead add +2 to all dispel attempts. Now were talkin. Suck on that scary WDG S2 hereditary spell of hell minor-irritation fire.

    Banner of the green knight
    Situational with underwhelming effect, possibly cant clear friendly or enemy units or terrain when activated.
    Suggestion- Remove one use only. Add the ability to summon the green knight as a damsel (lovely idea btw). Then, if the GK is slain and within X" of one or more banners do not remove the model. Instead as long as a BotGK is in X" follow HBE Rebirth rules found in the phoenix entry (I'm lazy tonight).

    Again not considering prices and just some top of my head ideas.
    AVOIDANCE FAILS 28% OF THE TIME FOLKS. -SE
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  • So yeah

    What items work ?

    Banner of the last charge

    What items don't work?

    All else :)
    Yes even crusader


    To be precise some items work but are overpriced.

    Do I even to write a full wall of text or is it enough that both UK master and my tournament wining list both don't use any KoE item but except banner

    Yes it sounds arrogant that I think so high from me but I truly belive they are all quite bad for OUR current choices of Lords and virtues (no need for crusader on horse Duke when he does zero dmg..... Just don't play it....)
    Too close to home; too lightly guarded!

  • I'll try and provide some useful feedback:

    - Wyrmwood core

    Why does not work?

    It is expensive for an item that doesn't improve the users ability to kill enemy characters.

    How to fix?

    Maybe add AP (2) to the lance attacks as well.

    - Fortress of Faith

    Why does not work?
    Way to expensive.

    How to fix?
    I feel to justify the negative element (reducing OWS to 4) it needs to also boost your armour save. Which would then allow you to combo it with other items to get a 1+ as well as take other items on a Duke or without them on a Paladin.

    - Storm Clarion

    Why does not work?
    Never known a KoE general to take it. I'm not sure what problem it is trying to fix as most armies have so few fliers. Is it a legacy item?

    How to fix?
    In it's current guise, a significant points reduction. I would just scrap it or make it an item that when taken can be activated once per game and all friendly models within 12"/18" benefit from hard target until the beginning of the controlling players next turn.

    - Crystal of the Valiant Charge

    Why does not work?
    It being a one time only item.

    How to fix?
    Should always be in effect, however, any points increase and it would suffer from the same (ie no one will take it)

    There are a few other little things, but the rest of the items, for me, work. I have taken all the others or would in certain situations. If you are asking are all our magic items tournament worthy? Then no, but I don't think they are meant to be, in fact I don't think I've seen any army's magic items and thought they were all useful.
    Mainly play KoE and OnG

    Rory Stoves - Member of The London Wargaming Guild (WHGG / LWG)
    Find us at meetup.com/The-London-Warhammer-Gaming-Guild/
  • My list:

    Oriflamme
    Why does not work?

    too expensive and doesn't address the issue, which is stubborn

    How to fix?
    Change to removes stubborn & bodyguard (but not steadfast). May need to be more expensive

    Crystal of the Valiant Charge
    Why does not work?
    One use only with a low to negligible effect which is situational. All for a Dominant 40 point item.

    How to fix?
    lose the situational bit. Personally, I'd go down this route if we think that we need another defensive magic item:

    One use only. May be activated at the end of the [i]opponent's Magic Phase. R[i]emove all Veil Tokens from the Active Player’s Veil Token[/i][/i]
    pool[i]. If the bearer is a Damsel they also gain one of the following bonuses depending on their magic Path:[/i]
    [i][/i]
    [i]Druidism: [i][i]The bearer's unit regrows X wounds.[/i][/i][/i]
    [i][i][i]Divination: The bearer's unit gains X reroll counters. Each reroll counter can be used to reroll one to hit, to wound or armour save roll for any model in the unit in the close combat phase.[/i][/i][/i]
    [i][i][i]Shamanism: The bearer's unit can immediately move X" in a direction to be chosen by the controlling player. The unit must retain the same facing (I.e. the unit can't turn), it just moves in the given direction.[/i][/i][/i]
    [i][/i]
    [i][i]where X is the number of veil tokens removed for all cases.[/i][/i]

    Storm Clarion
    Why does not work?
    Really bad for singles. Team events is where this item comes into it's own and the team need to move away from this.

    How to fix?
    Make it also target swiftstride would be fun and help us get the drop on other cavalry armies but I suspect too strong. Maybe change to enemy units cannot use the fly special rule or march this turn? This would also restrict fliers.

    Fortress of Faith
    Why does not work?
    Nerfed into Kingdom Come & made more expensive.

    How to fix?
    I'm still not entirely sure that it was broken before (maybe a bit cheap). Either allow attacking weapons as it is or put it back to what it was keeping the attacking weapons restriction.

    Wyrmwood Core
    Why does not work?
    This locks you into using a lance when our characters need to deal damage for 2+ rounds as nothing breaks round 1 (not even 20 goblins).

    How to fix?
    Move to being an Artefact rather than a weapon. Switch to S4, AP1 & a bit cheaper
    Never argue with Idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.