Sylvan Elves 0.202 after hotfix beta Discussion

This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

  • Absolutely crazy idea, here, very off the hook and probably completely off the table. How about we get the ALL the paths that are intrinsically tied to an armies concept?

    I don't remember the exact scenario, and please correct me if I was mistaken, but haven't HbE had the freedom to exchange one of their poll appointed ASAW to something else? I can't remember the exact scenario, it might have been swapping light shooting for armour to justify all the 2+/3+ saves they can put on the field?

    What are our ASAW? Can we not look at making Hexes an army strength?
  • Alexwellace wrote:

    Absolutely crazy idea, here, very off the hook and probably completely off the table. How about we get the ALL the paths that are intrinsically tied to an armies concept?

    I don't remember the exact scenario, and please correct me if I was mistaken, but haven't HbE had the freedom to exchange one of their poll appointed ASAW to something else? I can't remember the exact scenario, it might have been swapping light shooting for armour to justify all the 2+/3+ saves they can put on the field?

    What are our ASAW? Can we not look at making Hexes an army strength?

    I think ASAW would be quite different if done now that people know better the implications and meaning of it. Would be interesting to see.
    Also if RT allows it, and if we find something to trade, we could get witchcraft and some special rules to our druids, solving a good part of our concerns. Maybe the fact that we have a these concerns just shows that in our heart we wanted more magic, but didn't consider it well enough when we voted.

    CariadocThorne wrote:

    Serwyn wrote:


    CariadocThorne wrote:

    How does Shamanism not fit SE?

    Shamanism and Druidism together represent nature. Druids is the gentle, healing side of nature, and Shamanism is the harsh, unforgiving, dangerous side of nature. It also represents aspects of the SE like the Wild Hunt.

    Ignore the name "Shamanism", it is simply the wild side of nature, whereas druidism is the cultivated, tamed side.

    Shamanism also represents the King of the SE, Cadaron, God of the Hunt, while Druidism represents the Queen, Amryl, the Mother Goddess.
    It's not that it doesn't fit, but it fit less than witchcraft, and except for wild hunter I personally really don't see any of my elves being "wild".
    We have very different views on SE then. To me, all of them are "wild", otherwise they'd just be HE who live in a forest (and a lot of the HE DO live in forests). To me Shamanism is the most fitting path, with Witchcraft second and Druidism third (Druidism feels more HE than SE to me, as according to already released lore, it is about controliing and cultivating nature, whereas SE shouldn't try to control nature, but be one with it IMO, leave the pretty little magical rose gardens to the HE).
    Shamanism is also a very "Witchy" path, stirring both friends and enemies into a frenzy, befuddling enemy minds untill they are tripping and injuring themselves on flat open ground as though it were rough, dangerous ground, sapping the strength from their shooting and magic, calling wild creatures and insects to attack the enemy.... Not quite as Witchy as Witchcraft obviously, but pretty close.
    Yes then we don't share the same vision haha ^^

    In fact I just see them like most heroic fantasy books describe elves in forest. Also I like my models neat, tidy and shiny, like civilized elegent warriors. I see them as evolved and intelligent beings like other elves, (over)prouds with interests in knowledge, beauty, spirit and mind concerns, perfection, life and nature, but more mysterious, unpredictable and isolated, living in harmony with the forest. They're also excellent craftsmen, able to produce the finest metal to make weapons going through armor like butter and the best bows and arrows in the world. I see them witchy because they're deceptive, using illusions and shadows and mist to break or wrongly guide intruders. Not because they invoke swarms of insects over their enemies after having sacrificed a goat with a demoniac laugh like some egyptian or nothern shaman. That's fore Greenskin or Beasts.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Serwyn ().

  • Ciara wrote:

    Now with loss of divination missiles, nerf of cosmo missile having magic missile as our here isnt that bad idea.

    Also i think we should go with one type spell. What i mean it should be something simple, not bazilion effects with one spell which turns out to be useless, situational or doing so little its not worth casting. Either go for magic missile, pure hex, augment or magical move.

    I fully agree with this statement. Actually I would even be in favor of a more situational as long as it helps to mitigate our weakness, maybe a spell with a predefined target which can either be monster or high AS.
  • @Serwyn @Darksaga

    I don't see anything in what I said about "frothing at the mouth" or "sacrificing a goat" or anything like that. I just said wild. Not barbaric.

    Less aloof and restrained, more joyous and free. Less fine wine in a crystal goblet, more mead from a drinking horn. Less formal ballroom dancing, more dancing around a fire beneath an open sky in the forest. Hunter-gatherers, not farmers.

    Less this:

    More this:


    That doesn't mean they aren't "evolved and intelligent beings like other elves, (over)prouds with interests in knowledge, beauty, spirit and mind concerns, perfection, life and nature" because they are.

    It means that they live in harmony with nature, not trying to bend it to their will. That they live life to the fullest, exulting in the physical joys of the hunt, of battle, of dancing, gaining wisdom by experiencing life, not by sitting in a library reading books about other people experiencing life.
  • Hachiman Taro wrote:

    This could have been written by me.

    Chack wrote:

    But Spontaneous Witchraft ? The option in witch we select the hereditary from a list of 3 spells of witchraft instead of the actual hereditary, it would also enable double maidens. Or they will want to take away divination spells even with this approach ?
    The SE ACS were all quite pro to this option, but our feedback from RT was that they would far prefer us to have a custom Hereditary.
    Of course they do, why implement witchcraft in a clear and easy way that does not hamper nor hurt us in any way :roleeyes:

    Alexwellace wrote:

    It’s got to be asked now, isn’t Cosmology one of the most common lores about? All 3 Elves have it, both Undead and now Empire as well. That’s 6 out of 16 armies that have Cosmology, so it seems to me like it isn’t the “Elven path” anymore. While Witchcraft remains one of the least utilised.

    Duality is a theme for Sylvans I agree, but is it a bigger theme than illusion, glamour and Woodland witchery? I personally don’t think so
    Imo we already have the duality in Druidism and Shamanism in that they represent the two sides of nature (nurturing and feral). Good point in that cosmology no longer is the "elven" path (I did not know this myself as the only regular opponent I face with access to cosmology is DE), this seems to be the most used argument for us having it.
  • We are instinct first, reflection thereafter. Swift to action, swift to result; lingering only on the aftermath. Pain teaches the deepest lesson, which we repeat in song to spare our children the hurt, to share the spoils of fruitful cunning.

    We are forest first, elf second. As we take so must we give, or tomorrow there is nothing more to have. Our brethren in the world have become as the younger races: they are in the world, not of it, and so shall they dwindle ere the end. In the ruins that shall mark their fleeting passing shall the forest again take root.
    I invite you to choke on my pointy ears \ >_o/
    Phae's Pointy-Ear Blog: Elves in a Corner
  • Alexwellace wrote:

    @Grimes Here is 12 pages of discussion on the matter. Not all agreeing of course, but imho enough of a discussion to suggest it's something on peoples mind.

    Witchcraft for SE?

    What do you think of our lore choices? Thematically?
    Create a post named "Full Divination again for SE?" and see what community really want.
    Sylvan elves player

    "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting (MELEE)" - Sun Tzu ;)

    D
  • Grimes wrote:

    Create a post named "Full Divination again for SE?" and see what community really want.
    I suggest a more humble approach @Grimes as you clearly have no idea why and how this faulty implementation transpired.

    Long story short: our ACS asked RT for witchcraft as it is a path heavily wished for by many SE forum users since the birth of the paths of magic. RT said yes but that it would come at a cost, to which the ACS said "sure". The problem is that no one was told what the cost would be before it was written on the paper. Then BAM, RT gives us a broken shadow of witchcraft while breaking divination in the process.

    So please, direct that bratty attitude of yours away from the people wishing for witchcraft and our ACS team, it serves no purpose. And don't point it at RT either as they are responsible for us having this awesome game to be exited about to begin with.
  • @CariadocThorne Sure,but what you describe makes me a lot more think to druidism. Druidism contains that harmony with nature and wild life, it isn't gardening with roses and begonias. Shamanism is much more... Bloody. In most games or fantasy universe, you have goblin shamans, not elves shaman, because shaman has something barbaric, and elves are anti-barbaric archetype.
  • Serwyn wrote:

    @CariadocThorne Sure,but what you describe makes me a lot more think to druidism. Druidism contains that harmony with nature and wild life, it isn't gardening with roses and begonias. Shamanism is much more... Bloody. In most games or fantasy universe, you have goblin shamans, not elves shaman, because shaman has something barbaric, and elves are anti-barbaric archetype.
    Ignore the names. If you're going to pay attention to names Druids are far more "bloody" than Shamans, and so are Witches. A Shaman generally wouldn't even sacrifice a small animal, a druid would have no problem sacrificing a person...

    Anyway, if you read the fluff in the paths of magic book, in T9A Druidism IS gardens of roses etc. It is specifically nature bent to the will of the druid, whereas shamanism is more being in harmony with nature.
  • CariadocThorne wrote:

    Serwyn wrote:

    @CariadocThorne Sure,but what you describe makes me a lot more think to druidism. Druidism contains that harmony with nature and wild life, it isn't gardening with roses and begonias. Shamanism is much more... Bloody. In most games or fantasy universe, you have goblin shamans, not elves shaman, because shaman has something barbaric, and elves are anti-barbaric archetype.
    Ignore the names. If you're going to pay attention to names Druids are far more "bloody" than Shamans, and so are Witches. A Shaman generally wouldn't even sacrifice a small animal, a druid would have no problem sacrificing a person...
    Anyway, if you read the fluff in the paths of magic book, in T9A Druidism IS gardens of roses etc. It is specifically nature bent to the will of the druid, whereas shamanism is more being in harmony with nature.
    Yeah Druidism could be like influencing how trees grow so that they have aspect of houses. I definitely see my elves doing that. Although yeah, witches are way to violent and bloody for elves, but withcraft isn't only for "witches"... It can also be just shadows, ravens and illusions.
    Hogwart is school of witchcraft and wizardry but it's not bloody at all.

    Anyway I don't know if that discussion can really end to something, but I just feel like Shamanism isn't really made for us. We just have to see the atribute, it is clearly thought for warrior-like/brutal warlock. It would really fits better Tree spirits in my opinion. Maybe it would be possible to have them use shamanism instead of druidism ? They're clearly wild, even barbaric and definitely not roses and garden.
    Spell like break the spirit fits elves well, but swarm of insects i definitely don't think so. also we already have a buff strength.
    What I wanted to say is that it was maybe an option to get witchcraft, because every other path it seems we must keep it.
  • I think Shamanism fits us well. In at least I think the way that Shamanism and Druidism mirror each other better represents the duality of Sylvan nature better than the 'On the nose' imagery of Cosmology. Now I'm not saying Cosmology is a bad path, or that it doesn't fit us, duality is a big theme for Sylvans, all I am suggesting is that the theme of duality between the nurturing side of Sylvans and the Wilder, Darker side is being portrayed twice.

    I think Shamanism fits our lore very well. Hunting, Blood Sacrifices, I see my Wood Elves as closer to the Bosmer of Elder Scrolls than Tolkeins Mirkwood or Lorien. But then again, the symbiotic relationship between a living forest and the Elves has always been the thing I most enjoyed about Wood Elf lore. And apparently that's not the case here at all.
  • Eastern Gate wrote:

    Grimes wrote:

    Create a post named "Full Divination again for SE?" and see what community really want.
    I suggest a more humble approach @Grimes as you clearly have no idea why and how this faulty implementation transpired.
    Long story short: our ACS asked RT for witchcraft as it is a path heavily wished for by many SE forum users since the birth of the paths of magic. RT said yes but that it would come at a cost, to which the ACS said "sure". The problem is that no one was told what the cost would be before it was written on the paper. Then BAM, RT gives us a broken shadow of witchcraft while breaking divination in the process.

    So please, direct that bratty attitude of yours away from the people wishing for witchcraft and our ACS team, it serves no purpose. And don't point it at RT either as they are responsible for us having this awesome game to be exited about to begin with.
    I speak as always, with humble. Go ahead, continue nerfing our magic. I hope see full Divination back, at least.
    Sylvan elves player

    "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting (MELEE)" - Sun Tzu ;)

    D
  • You're never getting 1.3 Divination back anyway, since only Treefather Ancients are Masters in it anyway for SE, which means no Unerring Strike outside that, and even if Matriarchs could get Unerring Strike, which they can't and which is what made it strong, it's not what it was.

    So it's a false choice to start with.

    Data Analysis

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Hachiman Taro ().

  • I can certainly understand the frustration of Grimes and others concerning this debate on the Paths of Magic. They developed a play style of maxing out on shooting and taking paths of magic with damage spells to have the most ranged damage possible in their lists. I too would be annoyed if my play style was nerfed and then further community discussions were going towards the possibility of completely removing it.

    That being said, if we theoretically lost access to the damage spells in Cosmology in some sort of swap for full access to Witchcraft it could address a few concerns the RT have brought up about the direction of the Sylvan Elves:

    - It has been stated they desire us to have limited to no options for magic missiles
    - They are opposed to light troops on Mounted Druids because of avoidance concerns
    - They don't want to increase the composition percentage on Unseen Arrows, again because of avoidance concerns

    An argument could be formed that if we lost ranged damage spells we would lose a play style and decent chunk of ranged damage potential, the loss would be greater than a 1:1 spell swap. So in return we could we receive Light Troops on Druids, who without ranged damage spells are far less nasty in a mobile bunker, and an increase to the Unseen Arrows cap or points reductions on certain shooting units.

    If some of these restrictions were lifted in this fashion I am sure people who enjoy the nearly pure ranged style of Sylvan Elves would be able create some interesting new lists and use Magic instead to support their ranged units though augments & hexes.

    But again its just a theory,
    Cheers!
  • Hachiman Taro wrote:

    You're never getting 1.3 Divination back anyway, since only Treefather Ancients are Masters in it anyway for SE, which means no Unerring Strike outside that, and even if Matriarchs could get Unerring Strike, which they can't and which is what made it strong, it's not what it was.

    So it's a false choice to start with.
    So, let me see if I understand right what gonna hapn: no more Magic missils for SE? Are you talking serious? HAHAHHAHA
    Sylvan elves player

    "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting (MELEE)" - Sun Tzu ;)

    D

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Grimes ().