T9A: Grand Companies

    This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

    • It's true that we are missing some team members...

      After I'm confident that most of us have same "big picture" of army book we want to do.
      Previous book made by some of us will naturally been an inspiration.

      But like I said, if we want to do a serious mercenary book, it have to come from all of us and not from one book made by one person then "update" by this team.
    • Dan wrote:

      Sorry guys I’ve had the flu the past four days and have been completely out of commission. I’ll sit down tonight when I’m home to get the polls together.

      Before I do that, however, and I suppose to SVKBaki’s point, I confess I’ve been surprised by the low amount of feedback in this thread so far. I’m not sure if it’s lack of interest, time, or willpower, but if we only have a handful of people discussing big picture stuff it doesn’t bode well for getting to the nitty gritty like point balancing.

      Are we on the right track here? Are we better off just taking one of the existing books and play testing it?
      It's because things are too vague atm.

      It's like brainstorming for a polterabend. You know booze (or in this case money/mercenary) will be involved, but it's difficult getting ideas until you settle on a theme.

      Basically you need to come up with a team, make a framework (ASAW and model avaiability is a good start) and then flesh it out
    • Please read the list of special rules in this post and vote on those you'd like to see implemented. You may choose as many options as you like. 21
      1.  
        Paymaster Option 1 (4) 19%
      2.  
        Paymaster Option 2 (7) 33%
      3.  
        Paymaster Option 3 (6) 29%
      4.  
        Character Upgrades (9) 43%
      5.  
        Desertion! (14) 67%
      6.  
        Rallying (6) 29%
      7.  
        Distrustful (7) 33%
      8.  
        Upgraded Champions 1 (9) 43%
      9.  
        Upgraded Champions 2 (8) 38%
      10.  
        Upgraded Champions 3 (8) 38%
      11.  
        Bodyguard (11) 52%
      12.  
        Regiments of Renown 1 (6) 29%
      13.  
        Regiments of Renown 2 (8) 38%
      Special Rules Options

      Paymaster Option 1: No Battle Standard Bearer. The general of the army have the paymaster additional rule. When the paymaster is killed, all friendly units suffer a -1 Dis malus until the end of the game. Moreover, Each unit not in melee have to pass a Dis test or flee.

      Paymaster Option 2: Paymaster = BSB.

      Paymaster Option 3: A Mercenary States Army must include a single model with this Universal Rule. Model counts as Battle Standard Bearer. At the end of any phase in which the Keeper of Coin is removed as a casualty or when the Keeper of Coin Breaks from Combat, all friendly units within range of the model’s "Rally Around the Flag" must immediately take a special Panic test at -1 Discipline that cannot benefit from Commanding Presence in place of the normal test when a friendly unit is destroyed. If a unit fails this test it becomes Disorganized and may take no further actions this turn. Units that are Disorganized will automatically Flee as Charge Reaction and must take a Discipline test at Movement Phase Step 2 until it is passed or the game ends. Any unit rolling double sixes for this Discipline test will immediately Flee towards the nearest table edge. They may be rallied as normal in the following turns. Units in Close Combat, Fleeing or Fearless do not have to test.

      Character Upgrades: Character country/city origin to allow specific upgrades to troop as renown regiment.

      Desertion! if the paymaster dies, each unit without a captain must take a leadership test. if failed , a number of soldier equal to the difference between ld and the score flies from battle (they are mercs after all). Such a huge (but flavourfull) malus can allow a good design space (special abilities / equipment)

      Rallying: Units with more than half of their models with this special rule may ignore the Discipline penalty for units that are at 25% or less of their starting number when performing a Rally Test.

      Distrustful: Characters may only join units of Humans or their own kind. Only units of their own kind may use their Discipline, if in a unit of other then their own kind, use the next Discipline available for the unit when taking Discipline Tests. Characters cannot join a unit that contains one or more models with a different race than the Character in it. Model gains the Not a Leader rule.

      Upgraded Champions 1: Champions gain one more attack and 1 more wound. 50 pts of special equipment allowance (In order to prevent easy kill). Once per game, he give the possibility to make a Dis re roll (like bsb) for his own unit.

      Upgraded Champions 2: With the unit's champion/captain's protection against character challenges simply being the ability to turn down such challenges without penalty. They are mercenaries, after all, not knights.

      Upgraded Champions 3: Champions and characters of Grand companies allow their unit to re-roll panic tests caused by other friendly units.

      Bodyguard: All units have Bodyguard (Paymaster).

      Regiments of Renown 1: The unit considers all models without Mercenary as Insignificant and cannot use General Commanding Presence. As long as a friendly Character with Keeper of Company's Account is on the Battlefield, all unit with this rule have their Discipline increased by +1 (max.10). At the end of any phase in which your Character with Keeper of Company's Account is removed as a casualty every unit in the Army with Mercenary suffers -1 Discipline until the end of the game.

      Regiments of Renown 2: +1 OS and +1 Dis.
    • Please read the list of special weapon options and vote on the list below. You may vote as many times as you like. 22
      1.  
        Pavise 1 (3) 14%
      2.  
        Pavise 2 (3) 14%
      3.  
        Pavise 3 (1) 5%
      4.  
        Pavise 4 (9) 41%
      5.  
        Pavise 5 (6) 27%
      6.  
        Pike 1 (2) 9%
      7.  
        Pike 2 (7) 32%
      8.  
        Pike 3 (2) 9%
      9.  
        Pike 4 (2) 9%
      10.  
        Pike 5 (9) 41%
      11.  
        Hand Crossbow (2) 9%
      12.  
        Light Crossbow 1 (7) 32%
      13.  
        Light Crossbow 2 (9) 41%
      14.  
        Light Crossbow 3 (4) 18%
      Special Weapons

      Pavise 1: Shield. Units equipped with pavise gain a permanent soft cover or hard cover.

      Pavise 2: Shield. Units equipped gain hard cover.

      Pavise 3: Shield. Units equipped gain +2 armor.

      Pavise 4: Shield. Units equipped gain +2 armor against ranged.

      Pavise 5: Shield. Units equipped gain +3 armor against ranged.

      Pike 1: Spear. The model gain an additionnal FieR. When the unit is charged on front , it gain +4 (+3?) Agi instead of +2.

      Pike 2: Spear, requires two hands, distracting.

      Pike 3: Spear, +1 FiER, bonus AP on first turn.

      Pike 4: Attacks made with a Pike gain +1 Armour Penetration, Fight in Extra Rank and an additional Fight in Extra Rank. Close Combat Attacks from model parts wielding a Pike have their Agility set to 10 and +1 Strength in the first Round of Combat provided their unit is not charging and is not Engaged either in their Flank or Rear Facing. Cavalry, Beasts and Constructs cannot use Pike. A model using this weapon cannot simultaneously use a Shield against Melee Attacks.

      Pike 5: Attacks made with a Pike gain Fight in Extra Rank (2), Armour Penetration +1 but suffer a -1 Fight in Extra Rank when charging. In the first Round of Combat after being charged in the front, Pikes strike at Initiative Step 10 prior to Impact Hits being resolved, may only make 1 attack per round and gain an additional +2 Armour Penetration if it is not Engaged either in their Flank or Rear Facing. A model using this weapon cannot simultaneously use a Shield against Close Combat Attacks.

      Hand Crossbow: Hand crossbow: Shot 2, Distance `12", Str 3, Quick fire

      Light Crossbow 1: Range : 16, Shot : 1, Strength 3, AP : 1, Quick to fire

      Light Crossbow 2: Range 16”, Shot 1, Strength 4, Armour Piercing 0, Quick to Fire.
      When shooting from Short Range, the Armour Piercing is set to 1.


      Light Crossbow 3: Range 18”, Shots 1, Str 4, AP 1, Attack Attributes: Quick to Fire.
    • What about make the disicpline rules of this army really unique ?

      I would propose to combine all those proposition:

      The army dont get any general or BSB.
      The army should instead take one paymaster and in option could buy a second paymaster.
      The effect of paymaster is egal to BSB. (And each one give 200PV if they are killed)
      All unit get Bodyguard (paymaster)
      One unit of each type could transform his champion into a "captain" (or other name)
      All captain get their own characteristics in function of the unit, with at least 2 HP and always at least 1 additional point in disicipline than they own unit.
      All captain gain the rules inspiring presence 12" for all unit of the same type. (maybe different entry could be of the same type)
      Some captaine could get acces to magic item (50, 100 or 150)
      All captain count into character slot.
      If there was no more paymaster into the army, all disicpline test get a malus of -1.


      With all those rules combined, you will get a really unique discipline playstyle for the army.

      With some positive aspect:
      - Double BSB potential.
      - Multiple small disicipline bubble.
      - Strong build with bodyguard rules, for unit where you place paymaster, with a captain with high Discipline.

      And negative aspect:
      - Lost of all paymaster impacted all army. with the global discipline malus.
      - Captain are small character so not so hard to kill, so the Dis bublle could be destroyed one by one.
      cas-p.net / graphic & web designer.
      SE - VS - O&G - EoS / 9th age player.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Casp ().

    • Emperor_Zoron wrote:

      I have serious doubts about the two-wound 'captain'. I don't think they'd be able to survive long. Not unless you gave them additional stat buffs, like the old champions got...
      Indeed. The standard human hero statline was what worked so well in the past and it was flavourful too (with no access to special equipment or magic items they never got out of hand... well except Beorg maybe).

      Noone truly likes the Paymaster/panic tests. It's too huge as any VC player will tell you (and Vampire Lords at least are tough). Paymaster 1 or 3 would easily make the single biggest army weakness in the game.. so what kind of power do you balance that with? The OWS/DWS bonus to be free on all units?

      That being said I personally like PM3 the best, but its way too complex

      Rallying should be the other way around. Mercenary regiments were notorious for wanting to limit casualties. Another potential army weakness could be units below 25% not being able to rally at all
    • Wesser wrote:

      Indeed. The standard human hero statline was what worked so well in the past and it was flavourful too (with no access to special equipment or magic items they never got out of hand... well except Beorg maybe).
      Noone truly likes the Paymaster/panic tests. It's too huge as any VC player will tell you (and Vampire Lords at least are tough). Paymaster 1 or 3 would easily make the single biggest army weakness in the game.. so what kind of power do you balance that with? The OWS/DWS bonus to be free on all units?

      That being said I personally like PM3 the best, but its way too complex

      Rallying should be the other way around. Mercenary regiments were notorious for wanting to limit casualties. Another potential army weakness could be units below 25% not being able to rally at all
      Very valid issues, but they loss of the guy with the "Keys to the cash" must be devastating to the army as part. Hence why the Disorganized, which is only within the range of the "Rally" this however must go part in hand with the paymaster is still here which means more cash for those left. I see you viewpoint on limiting the casualties, but in a game system where that would lead to some exploitation, the idea of the Paymaster is here we are still OK. I think the balance is a forge org that can do just about anything with unit option, equipment options, character build options, and most importantly racial options.

      I have been a playing option 3 and that it a hard negative and I have seen time and time again that my opponent will go hard after him, but I have also used that to set traps, unit the hidden rule when away, I would sometimes bunker an assassin in my paymaster retinue.

      I think that when taken in context we must give our army a very defined hard weakness and to ensure that we can offset with other things.
      EdSteiner

      Tool Support - AB 3.x


      Si vis pacem, para bellum - if you want peace, prepare for war

      Download the current Army Builder 3.x 0.204.2 Dataset EN
    • EdSteiner wrote:

      Wesser wrote:

      Indeed. The standard human hero statline was what worked so well in the past and it was flavourful too (with no access to special equipment or magic items they never got out of hand... well except Beorg maybe).
      Noone truly likes the Paymaster/panic tests. It's too huge as any VC player will tell you (and Vampire Lords at least are tough). Paymaster 1 or 3 would easily make the single biggest army weakness in the game.. so what kind of power do you balance that with? The OWS/DWS bonus to be free on all units?

      That being said I personally like PM3 the best, but its way too complex

      Rallying should be the other way around. Mercenary regiments were notorious for wanting to limit casualties. Another potential army weakness could be units below 25% not being able to rally at all
      Very valid issues, but they loss of the guy with the "Keys to the cash" must be devastating to the army as part. Hence why the Disorganized, which is only within the range of the "Rally" this however must go part in hand with the paymaster is still here which means more cash for those left. I see you viewpoint on limiting the casualties, but in a game system where that would lead to some exploitation, the idea of the Paymaster is here we are still OK. I think the balance is a forge org that can do just about anything with unit option, equipment options, character build options, and most importantly racial options.
      I have been a playing option 3 and that it a hard negative and I have seen time and time again that my opponent will go hard after him, but I have also used that to set traps, unit the hidden rule when away, I would sometimes bunker an assassin in my paymaster retinue.

      I think that when taken in context we must give our army a very defined hard weakness and to ensure that we can offset with other things.
      Agreed, if you don't give the army a hard weakness (struggles once the paymaster is gone) you're going to find it very hard to balance the rest of the book because of how, having access to all these different units with different roles the army may end up being too good all-round without a significant weakness - unless you want to overcost everything to balance it out.
    • Bubonicus wrote:

      I think you are going too fast! You are discussing about special rules but you don’t have a full lists of units in army book and no concept about what every unit should do in game.
      How should we proceed ? your ADT experience can help us.
    • Dan wrote:


      1. The army will be named Grand Companies
      2. Background will be developed after/simultaneously with rules, not prioritized.
      3. Army strengths will be: high WS/BS, strong unit champions, diverse equipment options, and unit specialization
      4. Army weaknesses will be: poor army synergy, lack of access to special saves, and poor magical support

      That gives us a solid foundation and a set of guidelines to work within as we move forward.

      To keep things focused and on-track I recommend we restrict our dialogue to the following right now:

      1. Army special rules
      2. Humans only or mixed races
      this is a good step : something is missed

      A)

      Add to ASAW

      Shooting - strenght or weakness
      Magic - strength or weakness

      Shooting ( what kind of shooting should be allowed to the army ? Small arms fire, Medium arms fire
      , Heavy arms fire )
      Magic ( What kind of paths should be aviable to Company Wizard ? )

      B)
      Short text about what means unit specialization

      1- Lists of Characters
      2- Lists of Units

      Make this list keeping in mind existing models from miniatures companies you want

      C )

      choose the concept for every units and then divide them into the sub-categories ( Core / Special and so on )

      D )

      Make design

      How to make Design

      Concept first - Design Later

      1- Army Wide Rule
      2- Characters and ( things like Virtue/Races / Gifts)
      3- Unit
      4-Items
    • Tec43 wrote:

      Agreed, if you don't give the army a hard weakness (struggles once the paymaster is gone) you're going to find it very hard to balance the rest of the book because of how, having access to all these different units with different roles the army may end up being too good all-round without a significant weakness - unless you want to overcost everything to balance it out.
      Did you read my suggestion ?
      I think weakness would be hudge wich such disicipline synergie.
      cas-p.net / graphic & web designer.
      SE - VS - O&G - EoS / 9th age player.
    • Casp wrote:

      Tec43 wrote:

      Agreed, if you don't give the army a hard weakness (struggles once the paymaster is gone) you're going to find it very hard to balance the rest of the book because of how, having access to all these different units with different roles the army may end up being too good all-round without a significant weakness - unless you want to overcost everything to balance it out.
      Did you read my suggestion ?I think weakness would be hudge wich such disicipline synergie.
      I'll have a look.
    • So we need units. Alright, I'll just throw some stuff together, then, to help get the ball rolling.

      CHARACTERS - My first thought was that characters would actually be a bit of a weakness. As there'd not be many characters in the book, period. Furthermore, although serviceable, they'd not be the best in a one v one fight... With maybe one exception.

      Pay Master - All armies would need one. Generic stats and the ability to move through units as he pleases. I imagine him having Stand Behind and the ability to refuse challenges. Is the army's Battle Standard Bearer. This guy is the employer, your boss.

      Hedge Wizard - This wizard totally almost graduated from magical college. He swears. The Hedge Wizard does do magic, but is not as strong/multi-faceted/reliable as some other spell casters. Someone suggested that that they just use bound spells earlier.

      Assassin - Specialized character that would be intended to surprise/target/kill enemy characters. I imagine it having all sorts of rules about how it can enter and move across the battlefield (ambush, vanguard, Light Troops, Strider, etc.) ... As well as it being stuck by it's lonesome and being incapable of joining any other unit.

      PIKE SQUARE - Units armed with Pikes that have not moved for a turn may perform a:
      I have two thoughts on this. One is that they can perform a reform in response to a charge from an enemy, so that their front is facing the oncoming enemy.
      OR the player could choose to have the unit point it's pikes out in all directions, costing the unit it's FIER... But preventing it from suffering from any and all flanking penalties.

      Pikes - The same rules as the Spear, but also allows an additional rank of soldiers to participate in combat.

      Champion Upgrades - These upgrades can only be purchased if the full Command Group upgrade has been already purchased for the unit and if the unit is at least half of it's maximum possible size.

      Mercenary Commander: Blocks the effects of Desertion! and can decline dueling challenges without penalty. Gains +1 attack and grants one additional point of Discipline to the unit.
      Champion Duelist: Must always issue and accept challenges. Gains +1 attack, +1 DEF, +1 OFF, and +1 HP.


      THE HUMANS


      Display Spoiler

      Heavy Infantry 15 - 50
      Defensive Skill 3
      Offensive Skill 3
      Strength 3
      Resilience 3
      Agility 3
      Discipline 7
      Heavy Armour
      Pike Square
      Equipment: Come with Pikes standard. May switch out the pikes and Heavy Armour for one of the following:
      Light Armour/Paired Weapons
      Light Armour/Shields
      Light Armour/Thrown Weapons (+5)
      May take skirmishing, if armed with Light Armour/Paired Weapons, Light Armour/Shields, Light Armour/Thrown Weapons; and the unit is no larger than 15 and they also lose scoring.

      Light Infantry 10 - 30
      Defensive Skill 3
      Offensive Skill 3
      Strength 3
      Resilience 3
      Agility 3
      Discipline 7
      Equipment: Come with Pavises and Crossbows (+4). May switch those out for one of the following:
      Light Armour/Light Crossbows (+4)
      If armed with Light Crossbows, they can take Skirmisher. Provided the unit is no larger than 15 and they also lose scoring.

      Cavalry 5 - 15
      Defensive Skill 3
      Offensive Skill 3
      Strength 3
      Resilience 3
      Agility 3
      Discipline 7
      Light Armour
      Vanguard, Light Troops
      Equipment: Light Lance and Shield as standard. May replace the Light Lance and Shield with one of the following:
      bow (+4)
      crossbow (+4)
      Light Crossbow (+4)
      Paired Weapons
      May upgrade to Heavy Armour, but loose Light Troops and Vanguard



      THE NON HUMANS


      Display Spoiler

      Dwarfs 10 - 30
      Defensive Skill 4
      Offensive Skill 4
      Strength 3
      Resilience 4
      Agility 2
      Discipline 9
      Heavy Armour
      Equipment: Shield as standard. May replace the Shield with Pair Weapons.
      May take one of the following:
      If not armed with Paired Weapons, then the unit may take one of the following:
      Crossbow (+4)
      Handgun (+4)
      Throwing Weapons (+5)

      Elves 10 - 30
      Defensive Skill 4
      Offensive Skill 4
      Strength 3
      Resilience 4
      Agility 5
      Discipline 8
      Light Armour
      Vanguard, Lightning Reflexes
      Equipment: Long Bow (+3) as standard. May replace the Bow with one of the following:
      Spear and Shield
      Paired Weapons

      Ogres 3 - 10
      Defensive Skill 3
      Offensive Skill 3
      Strength 4
      Resilience 4
      Agility 2
      Discipline 7
      Light Armour
      Sons of the Avalanche
      Equipment: Paired Weapons as standard. May replace Paired Weapons with Great Weapon.

      Halflings 10 - 50
      Defensive Skill 4
      Offensive Skill 2
      Strength 3
      Resilience 3
      Agility 4
      Discipline 6
      Light Armour
      Light Troops, Forest Walker
      Equipment: Bow (+3) as standard. May replace the Bow with one of the Following:
      Spear and Shield
      Throwing Weapons (+3)
      May take Skirmisher. Provided the unit is no larger than 15 and they also lose scoring.

      Giant
      Defensive Skill 3
      Offensive Skill 3
      Strength 5
      Resilience 5
      Agility 3
      Discipline 8
      Rage, Giant See, Giant Do
      Equipment:
      May take one of the following:
      Giant Club
      Giant Shield*
      Giant Crossbow**

      *Giant Shield - Provides +1 armour save to forward facing enemies and grants Hard Cover to allies directly behind the giant.
      **Giant Crossbow - Bolt Thrower (4+): Bolt Thrower Artillery Weapon.Range 48”, Shots 1, Str 3[6], AP 10, [Multiple Wounds (D3)].

      Campaign Team