Sylvan Elves 2.04 Update Preview.

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  • CariadocThorne wrote:

    I think this is something which definitely needs a major review when the FAB comes, but aside from needing a slight improvement to our defensive options and fixing the bows, I don't think we are too badly off until then.
    Well nobody said we were bad off, but at this point I've narrowed my item usage down to Silent Mists, Hunter's Honour, Black Stag and Spirit of the Whirlwind.

    Sacred Seeds (aside from requiring you to lug one ekstra forest around) and Mistwalkers are for hilarity and that's alright

    That's pretty limited even for a casual chap like me, but then it's true for every army. Magic items are apparently tough to get right.

    I can do with the rest of the items being "meh", but I'd really love for our magic bows to be take-able as they are just too poor. Bough of Wyscan could be alright if it was either cheaper or the Pathfinder Nerf hadn't happened, but taking a character that is not mage/general/bsb requires justification and at 265+ points a Pathfinder Hero with Bough and his 3 shots are simply too feeble
  • nantuko wrote:

    So i’m I the only one who plays without any SE specific object? I think they are for sure fluffy but they are also so overpriced that aren’t worth any take in any competitive environment. The only item i’d consider taking is the hunter’s honor but since I then would need a big bunker to play it I!usually discard that item as well.
    Well Spirit of the Whirlwind work on a Dragon (especially with double STR magic) and is at least hilarious with Wild Hunter (dunno if really viable, but your opponents face when you pick up the dice...), especially combined with Black Stag

    Silent Mists are a good buy for Kestrels...but I've yet to find other units where it makes sense

    When I look at my other armies (Goblins/VC) I'm using more army items with SE than with those
  • Fnarrr wrote:

    @Eastern Gate I think you've missed out a few things here and there (And I don't know all the books to that detail to be able to find all of them) which skew your numbers, but nevertheless the direction of analysis is correct.

    So firstly:

    - missing things - entirety of DH (who have 10+ OUO items, very much on purpose), quite a lot of "halves" like ID mask of the furnace (breath weapon), the OnG crown that gives vanguard, WDG's wasteland torch, the majority effect of the Wyrmwood core for KoE (which probably should be just counted as total OUO)

    Secondly:

    - worth comparing number of OUOs as a % of total items rather than as a total. SE have 15 items, which is at the upper limit - so may well be in the lead with 40%; KoE are actually a match. DH despite having more are actually on 30-35%.
    I probably missed a few indeed but also I deliberately skipped a couple of items like wasteland torch since the effect takes place before the battle even begins and stays active for the entire game. It wouldn't have made any difference if they were included though as their cost is very low. I'm definitely not against One Use Only items as a whole, I actually kinda like the idea, what I'm opposed to is the quantity of high cost and highly restricted entries swamping our special equipment section. If all the items I listed (for SE) were to be balanced around a cost of 25-30pts a piece then I probably would have 0 qualms as I could take a bsb for instance, give him an important piece like Hunters Honor and still have point for a OUO. Or an adept druid would only need to sacrifice 1 spell caster artifact instead of 2 etc.
  • I agree. I think a lot of the army book design teams went "ooof we have limited army book items slots, lets make everything awesome!" meaning they ended up with a selection of expensive items. It was something that BT noticed - but by the time it got to use, its obviously too late, things just get a price tag.

    OK, some items have a fixed effect that can't really be trifled with - Mistwalker's Mirror and Sacred Seeds just do a *thing*. Horn of the Wild Hunt can drop in points if the range is reduced, I'd estimate it at around or just over half for "self" and then roughly speaking +5ish points for every inch after the first. Alternatively, both the Horn (amended or not) and the Drums of Cenryn can be permanent effects (but will cost even more). Hail shot doesn't need to be 3d6 shots for 70, it can be 2d6 for ~50, or 2d3 for ~30.
    Hristo Nikolov
  • casper h wrote:

    I would for one really like to see the option of building a all tree list with access to more treemen/treemen lords. You can only have a total of 3 treemen and that's a shame :( There are so many drawbacks with having only trees in your army that it would be fair to be able to include more than 3 treemen!
    I think 2 Treemen + an Avatar of Nature/Ancient is a very fair ask that is currently not legal. The only way to get 3 treemen models into a single list currently is an Ancient, Avatar and Treefather which is not only confusing (why are the *special* treemen more common than their generic counterparts) but also completely dictates your character section.

    I think asking for *more* than 3 Treeman models in an army would be asking for too much. Let's not mince words, Treefathers are the toughest monsters out there that cost less then ~800pts. A 3+ save (rare), a 5+ aegis (rarer) and defensive skill 5 (top end of non-character monsters) put them as the premier tarpit monster. 16 wounds of this (2 treefathers + character) alongside possible druidism support is a lot, but not unreasonable. IMHO asking for more than this wound be unreasonable.

    We should definitely begin discussions about a Forest Spirit auxiliary army. I can't really think of a in-army faction better suited to that treatment than forest spirits.
  • Alexwellace wrote:

    We should definitely begin discussions about a Forest Spirit auxiliary army. I can't really think of a in-army faction better suited to that treatment than forest spirits.
    I can think of a couple:

    Any tribe from Orcs and Goblins
    Constructs from UD (not Terracotta but real construct army)
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  • @Jal, @Fnarrr.

    Guess we'll just agree to disagree :P Perhaps we are using different check boxes when considering ''best suited'', which is slightly different most most deserving. When I look at the barbarian auxiliary book I see distinct and considerable faction from an existing army book being fleshed out with synergistic rules/items and 2/3 new units to allow them to capitalise on that factions flavour, which maybe at odds with the ASAW of the army the faction originally belonged to.


    I could see the argument for Feral Orc tribes for some easy unit swaps to add in some feral Lizardman Dino's and Raptors instead of Boars. I could easily see that. I however would argue that the idea that Bloodlines are as deserving doesn't work half as well as I personally don't see each faction as distinct enough from each other play style wise to create interesting auxiliaries. I'd be more inclined to support an auxillary book exploring a new bloodline all together; such as pirate zombies or Asian-inspired Vamps, which could try push in a different direction than the current Bloodlines (range focus). The way I see it auxillary armies should be made firstly to expand a distinct play-style that isn't supported in the current armybook and secondly for ''low effort high reward'' workload, all Forest Spirits need is some interesting character/unit upgrades (Forest Spirit units have some of the least customisation in the game) and 2/3 new units to fill mobility or support roles.

    But hey, maybe we should make a discussion about this in general forums? Top 3 auxillary armies wanted. I really liked what they did with the Asklanders book, thinking it was a step forward in the right direction away from hyper-balance and I'd like to see a auxiliary army team be created to push out these 'world building' army supplements without impacting the FAB production.
  • Fnarrr wrote:

    There are so many lists that simply can't deal with 4 treemen. Going full-on with the RPS is not a good idea, the limit is there for a reason.
    Like what? Every competitive list out there spams Strength and AP in some way. Flaming banners are an option. And the treemen are 465pts!

    Alexwellace wrote:

    I think 2 Treemen + an Avatar of Nature/Ancient is a very fair ask that is currently not legal.
    This is actually more than fair.

    I think the Avatar of Nature needs to be change a bit to be less of a treeman and more of an Avatar of Nature. The name reads that it can literally be anything that is nature-esk but that stats read that it is just a treeman.


    Jal wrote:

    Alexwellace wrote:

    We should definitely begin discussions about a Forest Spirit auxiliary army. I can't really think of a in-army faction better suited to that treatment than forest spirits.
    I can think of a couple:
    Any tribe from Orcs and Goblins
    Constructs from UD (not Terracotta but real construct army)
    There are 3 elf books.
    HBE is the avoidance/shooting list. If you are playing Sylvan elves and going tree spirit light and elf heavy then one should just play HBE or DE.
    So honestly, the Sylvan elf book should be balanced to be Tree Spirit heavy - it already is since the design team seems to give everything fearless so it can't run way. The auxiliary book should be Auxiliary Wood Elf army which would basically just be HBE with Forest Strider.

    I'm pretty serious about this. When you go read and really study the 3 elf books it becomes really apparent.
  • Peacemaker wrote:

    Fnarrr wrote:

    There are so many lists that simply can't deal with 4 treemen. Going full-on with the RPS is not a good idea, the limit is there for a reason.
    Like what? Every competitive list out there spams Strength and AP in some way. Flaming banners are an option. And the treemen are 465pts!This is actually more than fair.
    Like, really? Most of them. Not every list can handle like 4 toughest monsters in the game.
    Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
  • Peacemaker wrote:

    Fnarrr wrote:

    There are so many lists that simply can't deal with 4 treemen. Going full-on with the RPS is not a good idea, the limit is there for a reason.
    Like what? Every competitive list out there spams Strength and AP in some way. Flaming banners are an option. And the treemen are 465pts!
    Any SE list which doesn't spam Treefathers for one. We already have trouble dealing with other armies monsters, and Treefathers are one of the better monsters out there.

    Peacemaker wrote:

    I think the Avatar of Nature needs to be change a bit to be less of a treeman and more of an Avatar of Nature. The name reads that it can literally be anything that is nature-esk but that stats read that it is just a treeman.
    Could not agree more.

    I think it needs to be more customisable, with different aspects to tailor it towards different aspects of nature, from a tanky combat aspect (better treefather, like now), fast combat aspect (avatar of Cadaron - horned hunter), healing magic aspect, (avatar of Amryl - healing earth-mother), and so on.

    Peacemaker wrote:

    If you are playing Sylvan elves and going tree spirit light and elf heavy then one should just play HBE or DE.
    So honestly, the Sylvan elf book should be balanced to be Tree Spirit heavy - it already is since the design team seems to give everything fearless so it can't run way. The auxiliary book should be Auxiliary Wood Elf army which would basically just be HBE with Forest Strider.

    I'm pretty serious about this. When you go read and really study the 3 elf books it becomes really apparent.
    This time I couldn't disagree much more.

    Even pure-elf SE are totally different from HE. SE are the most mobile faction in the game, but all of that comes from our elves. The forest spirits are cool and unique from a fluff perspective, but by themselves the gameplay they offer is nothing new, other armies do the same thing, and often better. It's the Elves who add the unique edge to our play, while the Forest Spirits help balance it, and add a lot of the cool imagery etc.
  • New

    CariadocThorne wrote:

    Even pure-elf SE are totally different from HE. SE are the most mobile faction in the game, but all of that comes from our elves. The forest spirits are cool and unique from a fluff perspective, but by themselves the gameplay they offer is nothing new, other armies do the same thing, and often better. It's the Elves who add the unique edge to our play, while the Forest Spirits help balance it, and add a lot of the cool imagery etc.
    hmm, from what I can see, the SE and HBE are pretty much equal in mobility. Slight edge would go to the HBE due to martial discipline letting them easily regroup.
    i agree on the on the balance and uniqueness.
  • New

    Ciara wrote:

    Peacemaker wrote:

    Fnarrr wrote:

    There are so many lists that simply can't deal with 4 treemen. Going full-on with the RPS is not a good idea, the limit is there for a reason.
    Like what? Every competitive list out there spams Strength and AP in some way. Flaming banners are an option. And the treemen are 465pts!This is actually more than fair.
    Like, really? Most of them. Not every list can handle like 4 toughest monsters in the game.
    Must be your meta. High Toughness stuff is easily killed around here. Especially if it is flamable.
    ....pretty much just the stubborn on the tree fathers is the biggest issue.
  • New

    not every army can deal with three Treefathers. However, every army which can’t deal with them can easily roll up the rest of the army in my experience.

    That’s giving you 3k points plus secondary for a good win.
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  • New

    Peacemaker wrote:

    hmm, from what I can see, the SE and HBE are pretty much equal in mobility. Slight edge would go to the HBE due to martial discipline letting them easily regroup. i agree on the on the balance and uniqueness.
    HBE can field an army where every unit is light troops/skirmishers now? Or where every unit has scout, vanguard or ambush? They can move terrain to impede opponents movement without impacting theirs? Advance 6 elite combat infantry? Advance 6, March 18 swifstride vanguard infantry characters? Light Troops mounted combat lords? Elite cavalry with light troops? Magic items to redeploy units, or teleport them across the battlefield?

    I play both armies (although mainly SE, especially recently), and generally play elf-only SE, and I guarantee that HE can't pull anything like the movement phase shenanigans SE can.