After FABs are released, continuous point adjustments will do far more harm then good

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  • JimMorr wrote:

    For me entrance barrier is not in complexity of the rules but in the investment needed to field an interesting army. One of the greatest advantages of our game is diversity, hundreds of ways to customize your army, seemingly endless possibilities. Of course new players will learn in time that there are 2-3 builds for each army really... but only if they enter tournament environment. Without seducing them with our diversity they will never reach that stage.
    I understand that the inteded way to play the game is by using miniatures, but, for example, me and my group of friend are playing 9th age through tabletop simulator and we are enjoying the game just as well, i understand that seeing your beautiful army on the table is priceless as i used to play warhammer with minis but on the other hand without it we couldn't play the game because of various limitation like not having a big enough table or not living in the same city or not having the space to store minis.

    What i'm trying to say is that now there are some working alternative compare to physical minis (and conceivably there will be more in the near future), and these alternatives are not as time and money consuming as buying physical minis so this could be a potential way to attract new players.
    Now i'm just not sure if the project consider expansion just as good if it is through different medium than minis, obviously being the rules free the game can be played in any way but i have the impressions that promoting the hobby part is considered as important as promoting the game itself.
  • Chack wrote:

    ...
    What i'm trying to say is that now there are some working alternative compare to physical minis (and conceivably there will be more in the near future), and these alternatives are not as time and money consuming as buying physical minis so this could be a potential way to attract new players.
    Now i'm just not sure if the project consider expansion just as good if it is through different medium than minis, obviously being the rules free the game can be played in any way but i have the impressions that promoting the hobby part is considered as important as promoting the game itself.
    QS will have all premade starter armies, prepared battle fields and rules available on Universal Battles AND learning videos thanks to @piteglio great contact and work.
    So there is already one non-physical medium being prepared for easy-access.

    Quick Starter Team

    Playtester


  • DJWoodelf wrote:

    Chack wrote:

    ...
    What i'm trying to say is that now there are some working alternative compare to physical minis (and conceivably there will be more in the near future), and these alternatives are not as time and money consuming as buying physical minis so this could be a potential way to attract new players.
    Now i'm just not sure if the project consider expansion just as good if it is through different medium than minis, obviously being the rules free the game can be played in any way but i have the impressions that promoting the hobby part is considered as important as promoting the game itself.
    QS will have all premade starter armies, prepared battle fields and rules available on Universal Battles AND learning videos thanks to @piteglio great contact and work.So there is already one non-physical medium being prepared for easy-access.
    Well, then kudos to @piteglio :)
  • thank you guys!
    i'll probably need another month before i can finalise things (lots of travelling these days), but if you want to make yourselves an idea of how things should work, here's a brief preview video from the Veil of the Ages youtube channel.



    i'd apologise for the violent offtopic, but i guess that ship has sailed now! : D
    cheers,
    f
  • IoRi78 wrote:

    I understand that my point of view is hard to shallow, and i could be wrong. But I value things that are earned through difficulty even in hobbies. I find them more satisfaing.
    I think that a healty entry difficulty separate who have will to learn from lazy people and create a sane enviroment.
    that’s actually why I despise rules like unbreakable and stubborn, and to a much lesser extent bodyguard but that isn’t failsafe
  • My 2 cents.
    As someone who does not own a printer(hate them) but I also love having a hardback copy and not a fan of digital anything - I just got used to using my phone or my PC.
    Its not what I like, makes it hard to look up rules during a game having to scroll through a phone that has bad PDF support, it is straining to always look at a digital screen instead of a hardback. etc....

    I have also adopted the mindset that I don't pay for expensive rules anymore. If i buy a game book then I'm buying it for the pictures and the fluff. I bought many GW books this way and am still happy with my purchase after they release FAQ's, and new editions, etc...

    I am part of the target audience for people who want a printed version. I am also cheap. So I gotta say to those who want a hard copy - go spend your money and print one! If you are cheap like me then simply wait!

    And since this has to be repeated over and over and over and over again - This is a BETA version. You are signing up to play a beta and that means constant changes to the rules. Version 1.3 exists, versions 2.0 through 2.4 exist.

    I'm sorry but if you are a competitive gamer and you are trying to be cheap - you are in the wrong hobby. Not the wrong game but the wrong HOBBY. I can't stress that enough.


    If this sounds negative, it isn't meant to be. I'm just trying to be straight forward.
  • I skipped last few pages but here's another anecdote showing why we should at least consider physical presence;

    1. A lurker posts on club FB looking for a game of WH 8ed or AoS
    2. One of the T9A tool support responds nicely explaining 8ed is dead and we all play this new game T9A (with links to rules etc)
    3. Another mod jumps in practically says T9A for fantasy or 40k. AoS doesn't see play in club...
    4. Lurker goes mmh never heard of T9A ill still wait for 8ed or AoS.
    Conversation got a bit longer with people trying to get the guy at least try T9A but he was like "I only have WH models..."

    Yes anectodal and very bizarre situation but it all boils down to the fact that the guy hadn't seen T9A before and couldn't comprehend how a game wouldn't have its own model range etc. (I guess he is extremely wysiwyg)

    My point is you can disregard the example above but please don't under estimate the power of a physical book on a FLGS shelf.
    At the end of the day MTG still uses them even today when Internet shopping is so easy and accessible...
  • New

    matrim wrote:

    I skipped last few pages but here's another anecdote showing why we should at least consider physical presence;

    1. A lurker posts on club FB looking for a game of WH 8ed or AoS
    2. One of the T9A tool support responds nicely explaining 8ed is dead and we all play this new game T9A (with links to rules etc)
    3. Another mod jumps in practically says T9A for fantasy or 40k. AoS doesn't see play in club...
    4. Lurker goes mmh never heard of T9A ill still wait for 8ed or AoS.
    Conversation got a bit longer with people trying to get the guy at least try T9A but he was like "I only have WH models..."

    Yes anectodal and very bizarre situation but it all boils down to the fact that the guy hadn't seen T9A before and couldn't comprehend how a game wouldn't have its own model range etc. (I guess he is extremely wysiwyg)

    My point is you can disregard the example above but please don't under estimate the power of a physical book on a FLGS shelf.
    At the end of the day MTG still uses them even today when Internet shopping is so easy and accessible...
    I believe if nothing else I'd support hardbacks as prize support for tourneys. Maybe a small supply for those onlookers who come by to check out the game/models.
    Simply give a hardback for every prize category, let the winner know that it is ok to give that book to someone else they know to help get the word out.

    This is just a bare minimum suggestion. Feel free to add more "body" to this idea.
  • New

    I'm less sure than others about how much difference physical army books in stores would actually make in terms of "success" or "failure" of the game.

    I also don't see how it would be possible to print, distribute, and stock enough books in enough stores around the world to have enough presence for the purposes being discussed. And I still haven't seen any convincing posts regarding how all this would get paid for with a game system that isn't selling anything or paying anyone for doing any of the work.

    And I'm still not sure why so many think this is so critically necessary.

    I have said before and I will say again that I think too many of us have had that classic, magical infinite-growth economy philosophy drummed into our heads by our educational system to the point where we don't see the value in a steady-state stable version. Half the reasons why we have these supposedly "random" booms and busts that destroys employment and ruins working peoples' lives are precisely because we have a system where we try to grow everything perpetually for the sake of stock value....you've heard it a thousand f'n times..."if something isn't growing, then it's shrinking". My response to that is - UM WHAT??? Says who? What grows forever? NOTHING. But we treat that inevitability as being some sort of flaw in the laws of nature. If something isn't growing it can ALSO be steady as opposed to shrinking. Then, when - heaven forbid - a company merely makes money but doesn't grow, there's a panic that the sky is falling and everything falls into recession.

    You don't need an economics degree to see the inherent flaws in that self-imposed cycle of infinite up and down stress.

    I kind of see that same exact kind of economy based-themed stress being imposed on the devs. of 9th Age.

    Let's be clear about this - here in CT there's practically nobody playing 9th Age. I would be surprised if there were twenty people total in Connecticut that play this game. Does that mean that The 9th Age "failed" in Connecticut and that it needs more "market presence"? I say NO! Why? Because it's not possible to grow a game like 9th age along side stores that are selling Magic The Gathering, Age of Sigmar, X-Wing and Warhammer 40k. There's no point in competing with those juggernauts. 9th Age isn't on the market for sale, therefore it can't possibly have a market presence along side games that are being sold by cornerstone gaming companies.

    But I'm playing it. Mr. Owl is playing it. Others here, while a small number - are playing it. It inspired our imaginations and sparked our interest enough to get us to play it! A ruleset designed half a world away for the ETC has reached the tiny town of Naugatuck, CT and inspired an immersive, narrative player to play it! To me that's a success. For a state as small as Connecticut to have twenty people playing a free game created in Europe designed for tournaments to me is pretty amazing. So when I say there's practically "nobody" playing it you have to put it into its proper context.

    And, in the 9th Age games that I've played so far at our local store we've had about half a dozen people stop by our table, curious as to what we were playing. So Steve and I gave them the full story and put the bug in their ears. Again, pretty cool that a free game made for the ETC on another continent is being talked about and spread thousands of miles away by simple curiosity! And THAT is why GREAT-LOOKING tables and miniatures are SO important! A big part of the reason that those people stopped by our table was precisely because it caught their eye. They had that "oh coooool" look on their faces precisely because we had fully detailed terrain boards and fully painted armies! That is huge in terms of attracting curiosity in the game! I highly doubt we would have had as many people stop at our table if we were playing on a ping-pong table with unpainted miniatures. People are captured by visual stimulation. The games have to look good because it means that the players are taking the game seriously.

    And if new people see that players take their game seriously it immediately elevates the game's credibility.

    I believe that 9th Age has already succeeded spectacularly. For something that began as a competitive ruleset to allow the continuation of the ETC, it is now being played in numerous countries on all parts of the globe. In the age of digital media, all players have full and free access to the PDF's on this site. It's a 100% free ruleset. I think that trying to put physical books in stores with actual price tags defeats the purpose of this entire project.

    There are entire gaming systems that are produced and sold by small, independent game companies that are available ONLY in PDF downloads. There are whole sites dedicated to nothing but selling wargames rules as PDFs. These sites are very successful. And there's nothing wrong with a PDF-only available rules.

    And I think we need to give both veteran and new players more credit. People can figure out a game that has no official line of miniatures. Veteran players understand what this means. And veteran players can communicate and guide new players to the miniature listings on this site as well as others.

    So I say that physical books are not necessary. Players can print out and put into binders the PDFs as they see fit. That's not to say that there shouldn't be an option available through the site where you can arrange to have a physical books printed for you. But I don't think it's something that 9th Age NEEDS in a market-driven wide scale.
    There are many magic rings in the world Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly!

    The post was edited 4 times, last by Baranovich ().

  • New

    Baranovich wrote:

    I'm less sure than others about how much difference physical army books in stores would actually make in terms of "success" or "failure" of the game.

    Baranovich wrote:

    9th Age isn't on the market for sale, therefore it can't possibly have a market presence along side games that are being sold by cornerstone gaming companies.
    Well I believe you answered yourself. The only real difference between T9A and the Big Games is the fact that hobby shops can't sell us even if they wanted. If they can't sell it they will not organize events for the game. If there are no events in the shops, there are no players. Of course mere printing books will not make us successful but without that step Project can't dream about any further development.

    And the books will not get into every store in the world. To enter stores you have to offer them credit for 6, 9 maybe 12 months. Probably each country has its own standards. Stores will take the books if they don't need to pay for them until they are sold. Stormrider is not GW or CMON who can force retailers to prepay for the stuff. The more money crowdfunding will gather the further it will be able reach. With minimum support I'll invest to be able to provide the books at least to online store supporting T9A. With high number of backers I will be able to tripple printed number of books to deliver them abroad or address distributors.

    Baranovich wrote:

    That's not to say that there shouldn't be an option available through the site where you can arrange to have a physical books printed for you.
    The problem is such print on demand will cost you 30-35 Euro. My aim is to provide books at half of that price. Still need to calculate some costs before creating campaign page.
    Homebrew: Hetmanate of Ukray_____________Report your battle results using mobile app: T9A Magic Flux!
  • New

    Baranovich wrote:

    I'm less sure than others about how much difference physical army books in stores would actually make in terms of "success" or "failure" of the game.

    I also don't see how it would be possible to print, distribute, and stock enough books in enough stores around the world to have enough presence for the purposes being discussed. And I still haven't seen any convincing posts regarding how all this would get paid for with a game system that isn't selling anything or paying anyone for doing any of the work.

    And I'm still not sure why so many think this is so critically necessary.

    I have said before and I will say again that I think too many of us have had that classic, magical infinite-growth economy philosophy drummed into our heads by our educational system to the point where we don't see the value in a steady-state stable version. Half the reasons why we have these supposedly "random" booms and busts that destroys employment and ruins working peoples' lives are precisely because we have a system where we try to grow everything perpetually for the sake of stock value....you've heard it a thousand f'n times..."if something isn't growing, then it's shrinking". My response to that is - UM WHAT??? Says who? What grows forever? NOTHING. But we treat that inevitability as being some sort of flaw in the laws of nature. If something isn't growing it can ALSO be steady as opposed to shrinking. Then, when - heaven forbid - a company merely makes money but doesn't grow, there's a panic that the sky is falling and everything falls into recession.

    You don't need an economics degree to see the inherent stupidity in that self-imposed cycle of infinite up and down stress.

    I kind of see that same exact kind of economy based-themed stress being imposed on the devs. of 9th Age.

    Let's be clear about this - here in CT there's practically nobody playing 9th Age. I would be surprised if there were twenty people total in Connecticut that play this game. Does that mean that The 9th Age "failed" in Connecticut and that it needs more "market presence"? I say NO! Why? Because it's not possible to grow a game like 9th age along side stores that are selling Magic The Gathering, Age of Sigmar, X-Wing and Warhammer 40k. There's no point in competing with those juggernauts. 9th Age isn't on the market for sale, therefore it can't possibly have a market presence along side games that are being sold by cornerstone gaming companies.

    But I'm playing it. Mr. Owl is playing it. Others here, while a small number - are playing it. It inspired our imaginations and sparked our interest enough to get us to play it! A ruleset designed half a world away for the ETC has reached the tiny town of Naugatuck, CT and inspired an immersive, narrative player to play it! To me that's a success.

    I believe that 9th Age has already succeeded spectacularly. For something that began as a competitive ruleset to allow the continuation of the ETC, it is now being played in numerous countries on all parts of the globe. In the age of digital media, all players have full and free access to the PDF's on this site. It's a 100% free ruleset. I think that trying to put physical books in stores with actual price tags defeats the purpose of this entire project.

    There are entire gaming systems that are produced and sold by small, independent game companies that are available ONLY in PDF downloads. There are whole sites dedicated to nothing but selling wargames rules as PDFs. These sites are very successful. And there's nothing wrong with a PDF-only available rules.

    And I think we need to give both veteran and new players more credit. People can figure out a game that has no official line of miniatures. Veteran players understand what this means. And veteran players can communicate and guide new players to the miniature listings on this site as well as others.

    So I say that physical books are not necessary. Players can print out and put into binders the PDFs as they see fit. That's not to say that there shouldn't be an option available through the site where you can arrange to have a physical books printed for you. But I don't think it's something that 9th Age NEEDS in a market-driven wide scale.
    Books will help T9A grow; and here in the US we could really use that. My own group is pretty excited about the prospect of hardcover books and almost everyone will likely buy one once available. There is a market and I welcome any entrepreneur that is willing to take the time and risk to cater to it.
    "An hour of wolves and shattered shields, when the age of men comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you *stand, Men of the West!*"

    -Aragorn, son of Arathorn
  • New

    I should step down from the ExB and just open up a Ninth Age game store with a bar. Serve food and beer to pay the bills. Sell hobby materials and supplies. Stock if full of Ninth Age books and cards when @JimMorr prints them. Make it a regional Ninth Age center. That would be a lot more fun than being a lawyer ...
  • New

    Mr.Owl wrote:

    I should step down from the ExB and just open up a Ninth Age game store with a bar. Serve food and beer to pay the bills. Sell hobby materials and supplies. Stock if full of Ninth Age books and cards when @JimMorr prints them. Make it a regional Ninth Age center. That would be a lot more fun than being a lawyer ...
    Pay isn't as good, though.

    I bet it is generally less stressful, so that's a point in its favor.
  • New

    this is why forums dont work.

    HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION: In RL if some would tell me that physical books don't matter I would laugh very hard and (edited by mod).

    But here its seen as a personal attack. Which obviously it is to some degree, warranted by specific prior remarks.
    Booooooaaaaaarsssss .... Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaarge !!!

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Pellegrim ().