Lightning Reflexes should cancel Lightning Reflexes

This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

The latest issue of the 9th Scroll is here! You can read all about it in the news.

  • Lightning Reflexes should cancel Lightning Reflexes

    The title says it all :
    « Lightning Reflexes should cancel Lightning Reflexes »

    Why ? Because it's so silly, when you have Elves facing other Elves, that every one hits on 3+, always.
    I mean, Elves are « ninjas », so they hit easier. But they should also avoid hits easier.
    Now, this is reflected by their high Def.
    But then, you get +1 to hit.

    So, simply, Lightning Reflexes should cancel Lightning Reflexes, else you get the impression that those Elves are just throwing themselves into the melee without caring that they are being hit.
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa
  • I think you're basing your view more around the name of the rule, not what the rule actually does.

    It doesn't make you better at dodging.
    It's just an attack attribute like Lethal Strike or Poison, and we wouldn't say those should cancel, would we?

    Really I think it needs a name change.
    Something like "Blade Master" to make it clear it's an Attack effect and not a generalised "I've got super reflexes" which will make people believe it lets them dodge better when it does nothing of the sort.
  • However you name it, it's the same thing.

    The fact that Elves all have that rule represent their superior skills / bodies / biology / agility compared to all the other races in the world.
    So it is logical that Elves hit everyone else on 3+ ; or, actually, as in most cases, 2+.
    They can even hit warriors behind a shield on 3+.
    That is super cool !

    But when Elves fight other Elves, who are equally resourceful as each other, there's really no point having everyone hitting each other on 3+.
    I mean, even if you call it « Blade Master », it doesn't change anything.
    It's plain silly having those superior beings hit each other so easily.
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa
  • I am quite unsure if that does or does not make sense. On the other hand, if you imagine that they fight really quickly and that one attack does not represent one blow but a succession of blows (because of being fast as lightning), then it is somehow does make sense, that elves start shredding each other away in no time.

    Game-wise I am really happy when a close combat does not take half the game. ;)
    Home Brew: Sea Guard (~HBE)

    Sea Guard
  • Ghiznuk wrote:

    It's plain silly having those superior beings hit each other so easily.
    ...but in T9A they're not superior beings, they're just better at hitting things than most.
    They're not better at getting out the way of a strike.

    I do get your point, Elves should have a rule that makes them harder to hit and this should then be negated by some means when fighting an equally quick and nimble opponent.

    But they don't have a rule like that.
  • Lets break this down from a battlefield fluff perspective:

    Elves are super awesome swordsmen (or swordswomen, or spearmen, or spearwomen, or spearsheelves..., but I digress).

    They are like legolas in the LOTR, or Jackie Chan, or John Wick, twirling and twisting and parrying and generally being awesome at hitting people. So this reflected in their lightning reflexes, their high agility and high weapon skill.

    I get the argument that if elves are so awesome at hitting you, they should be awesome at defending right? And being awesome at hitting and awesome at dodging should cancel each other? its a fair point.

    From a game mechanic point of view, this should be distracting- if your good at hitting- lightning reflexes, if your good at dodging- distracting. in this situation elves would cancel each other out, and elves should also be good at not being hit by other races.

    But where that doesnt work from a battle field fluff point of view, is in rank and file. you cant dodge when jammed shoulder to shoulder. You can parry, but that what your defensive skill is there to convey. If we feel elves are such awesome defensive swordsmen, (halberdiersheevles) then a high defensive skill is the way to go- then its comparative to the skill of the person trying to hit you.

    If there was a skirmishing elf unit that had both lightning reflexes and distracting (enough room to dodge) I would be cool with that, but I dont think there presently are.
  • Damo wrote:

    I get the argument that if elves are so awesome at hitting you, they should be awesome at defending right? And being awesome at hitting and awesome at dodging should cancel each other? its a fair point.
    From a game mechanic point of view, this should be distracting
    It's not that at all.

    They are already good at defending. The average elf has Def 4. Elite and Heroes have Def 5, 6, 7 or even 8.

    The problem is that their superior Defensive skill, that should be balanced against heir equally good Offensive skill, is negated by Lightning Reflexes.

    So even an elf hero with Def 7 gets hit on 3+ by a simple elf dude with Off 4.

    Whereas a normal Dwarf hits him on 4+, and a normal Human hits him on 5+.


    The other Elf should hit him on 4+, too.


    That's what I'm talking about.


    Also, I totally don't get the point of « Elves having issues killing each other », i mean, there are plenty of options to give them Great Weapons and Dread Elves have plenty of upgrades and rules that help them killing.
    Also, they all have Res 3, which makes them easier to wound with even a simple Halberd.

    So really, i don't see the point, I mean, it's just the same as Str 3 Res 3 Humans hitting each other, and certainly not as bad as Str 3 Res 4 Dwarves and Orcs hitting each other !
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa
  • If I read correctly, you feel that elves are hit too easily, particularly when facing other elves. I feel the same. I haven't read enough T9A fluff yet, but I guess they are still beings living very long, or even forever, so you'd bet they develop their defensive art first, before trying to hit.

    So I'd rather see elves with a very high defensive skill than a high offensive skill and Lightning Reflexes. But elves vs elves would be a grindfest indeed. I don't see elves throwing mindlessly at each other throats.

    The full book rewrite should help getting closer to the fluff!

    Slim Layout Coordinator

    Translation Coordinator

    Translation-Team FR

    I ♥ LaTeX

    Local Moderator (French)


    LaTeX... You fear to go into those complex interactions between packages. The dwarves coded too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke in the darkness of TeX-dum... shadow and flame.
  • I also think that 2 fighters that both have lightning reflexes none of them should get the +1 to hit.

    But you would also need to take away rule on GW wielding models then, opening proplems when fighting units with mounts or combo battles.
    So such a change should be well thought about, linked with the FAB rework of the 3 elfen books. (I think their damage output is to high, but they also die to easy to a lot of things.
  • If the elfes don´t get +1 to hit against other elfes, suddenly the GW wielding units would get an additional boost in the fights against other elfes. So you would have to either keep the +1 to hit for non GW using elfes against GW elfes, or you would have to take away the "hits at agility" when fighting other elfes.

    So no...it is not fine. Taking away only one part of the rule, would strengthen the other part a lot.
  • Ghiznuk wrote:

    Which could be a solution, but I feel it's not that ideal, cuz then you need to define « what is an elf », like do Giant Eagles count, and so on.
    An elf is just an eagle, but without feathers, majestic beak, all seeing eyes, and etc. At the same time it has an ugly ears in the form of fleshy knifes, and have a big arrogance problems. Is it sufficient description?

    About the rule itself - I never understood it. If you want someone to hit better - give him better weapon skill instead of making it hit better regardless of skill.
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - passion project for the future
  • This is not what T9A needs! =O Another special rule that includes a list of exceptions or special requirements. I don't fancy Lightning Reflexes either, but I'd rather have a nice and clean, easy to remember special rule than a clunky special rule that "suits" my own narrative.
    #freekillerinstinct - Killer Instinct for all Dread Elves!

    Painted armies for sale:
    Coming soon: Kingdom of Equitaine Army
  • Happy Aspid wrote:

    About the rule itself - I never understood it. If you want someone to hit better - give him better weapon skill instead of making it hit better regardless of skill.
    Well, no, the +1 to Hit is more powerful than + 1/+2/+3 Off.
    An obvious example is, you still get to hit a warrior behind a shield on 3+.
    Because no matter how big is your Off, the rule Parry means that your enemy increases his Def until as high as your Off.
    If your Off = his Def, you hit on 4+. But with Lightning Reflexes, you hit on 3+.
    GHAÂAÂAÂARN ! — The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
    First T9A player in West Africa
  • Ghiznuk wrote:

    Happy Aspid wrote:

    About the rule itself - I never understood it. If you want someone to hit better - give him better weapon skill instead of making it hit better regardless of skill.
    Well, no, the +1 to Hit is more powerful than + 1/+2/+3 Off.An obvious example is, you still get to hit a warrior behind a shield on 3+.
    Because no matter how big is your Off, the rule Parry means that your enemy increases his Def until as high as your Off.
    If your Off = his Def, you hit on 4+. But with Lightning Reflexes, you hit on 3+.
    This is exactly what i meant. In my opinion armywide lightning reflexes is a form of rules cheating)
    DH - main
    WODG - secondary
    OK - passion project for the future